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wiki




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:17 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Again, I’ll pose the question which I’ve asked of liberals before, and never received a response to. This will show how honest and rational they’re capable of being when it comes to this president: Is there anything, anything at all, this president has done since taking office, that you consider good?


He has also led to what appears to be a major upsurge in political awareness and engagement. My high school students can name the Speaker of the House, the Senate Majority Leader, many Supreme Court justices and the House Intelligence Committee Chairman like these are all positions that obviously always are household names to high schoolers. (Reality check: most years my students cannot name any of them.)

This is only to allude to the impact his presidency is having on vote turnout all across the political spectrum, which I think is a great thing.

(I don't really identify as a "liberal" on most issues, but I am very anti-Trump, so I assumed Cheiny meant to include me in her original post.)
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wiki




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:23 pm
Another Trump positive: I think his default tendency to seek to limit foreign entanglements and wars is a good one. His willingness to meet with Kim Jong-Un is not, on face value, a bad idea. (Although I take issue with some of the way that the meetings have been handled and I do not think he is approaching North Korea correctly all in all.)
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Jeanette




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:25 pm
I am happy Rubashkin's sentence was commuted. I don't think he's completely innocent but he served far more time than he should have for his crimes.

I don't think moving the embassy has much of an impact either way. I am very concerned that his foreign policy decisions in Syria and now Lebanon are destabilizing the region and leaving Israel less safe. We don't yet know Netanyahu's political future (or Trump's) so it may not be wise for Israel to tie itself too closely to any one administration, especially one as volatile as Trump. His habit of kicking the feet out from under the state department and career foreign service officials doesn't inspire much confidence that any gains for Israel under this administration (such as it were) will have any kiyum in a future administration.

His foreign policy overall hews far too closely to what will be advantageous for Putin rather the strategic interests of the United States. I don't know if that's due to Putin having actual leverage over him or just being skilled at managing and manipulating him. Whatever you think of Trump, I think Putin has been absolutely masterful in his ability to sow intrigue and orchestrate world events to his advantage. He has higher approval ratings among Republicans than Democrats do. E could challenge Trump for the Republican nomination and would probably win. Maybe instead of talking about whether there's any Trump policies I like we can talk about what I like about Putin, since I can hardly think of an area where Trump and Putin have significant differences. Whatever Trump does seems to work out oddly convenient for Putin.
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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:35 pm
There has been a tremendous amount of comedic material for the late night comedians due to the Trump presidency. I am really enjoying it from that end.
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33055




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:36 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Bush the Younger was known for his nicknames. And I don't think all the recipients appreciated the nicknames. But they were cutesy, not barbed.

I can't think of anyone else who was as blatant (because we know what people said when they thought no one was taping, or could get hold of the tapes) as the current POTUS.


What about LBJ having a bowel movement with the bathroom door open while having full cabinet meetings?

There have been other Presidents more blatant, but with the rise of social media our blinders came off. Hillary Clinton sent around a memo that all interns must wear underwear. All the young interns were news. I remember at a Ford/Carter debate, they wanted Ford to stand in a recessed floor. Instead Carter stood on a box. With cell phone cameras that would have made the headlines.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:38 pm
roses wrote:
There has been a tremendous amount of comedic material for the late night comedians due to the Trump presidency. I am really enjoying it from that end.


None of it was funny. The comedian's today are all terrible at their jobs.
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33055




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:41 pm
small bean wrote:
None of it was funny. The comedian's today are all terrible at their jobs.


I agree. Politically correct lecture disguised as comedy are boring. I stopped watching many shows.
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4pom




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:44 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I happen to agree with you about neither the left or the right representing Torah values.

I think Trump is a poretz geder in the sense that he violates norms that used to be considered inviolable. And through his behavior he moves the needle on what is considered normal and proper and respectable behavior. So if you support him, you may not be supporting the behavior per se but you are at the very least arguing that it shouldn't be disqualifying in a president. I can hear an argument that the president doesn't have to be a paragon but he doesn't even meet the minimal standards we'd expect from an average kindergartner.

I don't know if you work in a professional environment or not, but I keep thinking about the norms and ethics I'm supposed to follow in order to do my job, and how I would definitely lose my job if I acted the way he does, and my job certainly has nowhere near the weight or responsibility that the president of the United States does.

I was a conservative all my life. I never voted for Democrats until 2016. So it just doesn't hold water that I would excuse this behavior in Democrats but now suddenly I can't abide it because Trump is a Republican. I just assumed that everyone saw the same things in Trump that I saw, like his bankruptcies and his scams and dishonesty. And it's a huge relief to me to hear from people like Roses or Wiki or Simcha2 so I know I'm not the only crazy one. We can all be crazy together!


I hear you.
Trump had definitely been poretz geder on a public level with no hint of apology. I am just not surprised and it's partially bc the mask of decency never was more than a mask to me.
I have worked in a professional environment in the USA and that experience formed some of my views. There was a changing dynamic of what was acceptable and what wasn't. The facade of what I call Disney American values evolved, but all the time blatent affairs and gossip and prejudice was tolerated as long as it wasn't in the face.
So to me there was no real, better moral standard. It was a fake, nice looking standard. Basically, what existed in Hollywood until the metoo movement blew it's cover. The Bill Cosby story is the exact microcosm of how I see America. The very guy who looks like the family values guy of kindness and decency, is a rapist!!
It's all over. So telling me that I should be surprised with Trump's over the top disgustingness being accepted as norm - I don't know. To me acceptance of the behind the mask hypocrisy has always been an issue. I've seen covert sexism/racism everywhere. Amongst all classes.
I'm not even going to argue which is worse? the one who is obviously a male chauvanist or the one behind the mask of decency? Bc I honestly don't know. I will say that it's good not to be convinced that a mask of decency is reliable.

And I'll also add that in my professional work place. There was even the political bias to pro-Obama back when he was elected that shocked me. I expected as professionals to keep political views private. There was a celebration of Obamas election to the point that his inauguration was watched collectively. When I asked about it- whether this happens at all inaugurations, I was told no this was a special celebration for a major step forward in American history.... About a non-white being elected. The population we served were minorities. When I expressed my fears, as a Jew, of the unknown with his election, I was considered scandalous. And there other fellow frum Jews there who spoke of voting for Obama - so it was my personal thoughts I was expressing not representing religious Jews. And note - at that point I was not an American citizen able to vote - So I was clear I was not talking politics but theory.

Basically, I do hear the shock at how can we, as frum Jews, support Trump. And my question goes further than yours. To The rabbis and leaders that support Trump. Why don't they make it clear they do not support all he represents. In response to my kids coming back from school proTrump due to him being good for the Jews, I have told my kids clearly and concisely that his middos are terrible and he is not a role model for us as frum Jews. Why is this not being mentioned in school? I wouldn't have mentioned it. But in no way do I want my kids half ignorant and supporting someone blindly. Getting caught up in ideas they know nothing of. If you choose to teach my kids something about politics be wholesome. That's my rant against the schools. Or maybe my kids got it from friends at school..
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:47 pm
This is ridiculous Putin does not have 95% approval ratings amongst Republicans like trump has.

Trump has been extremely hard on Russia with sanctions, more so than obama.

This whole russia thing has been taken way too far.

Trump has been very consistent on foreign policy with what he said when he ran for president.

Moving the embassy changes the relationship we have with Israel. That's it. It shows we recognize Jerusalem as the capital. I dont know what you expected to happen by that.

At the end of day, if you can't give any real credit to trump, you are being dishonest to yourself. I suggest you think about all the negative things that happened to you in the last 3 years because of him.

This is not written to anyone inparticular. It is just so much nonsense that caused me to write this.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:52 pm
Seriously why don't your kids know that we dont idolize politicians? Why dont they know what's going on? Why are they not aware of politics on a deeper level? Why do you leave them to learn this stuff in school? This is really a new thread.

I don't know any Rabbi or any person that thinks that trump is a role model. It bothers me that people can't see two things at the same time.

And sorry hillary would be president, we wouldn't be bashing her morality all day either. And she is worse than him in that sense.. she is a horrible person and for some reason that wouldn't be the converation.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:53 pm
roses wrote:
You really need to stop excusing and promoting s-xual assault. It's abhorrent.

If you know anything about s-xual violence, you know that part of the trauma is freezing into a traumatized state and being unable to fight/flee. This is the scenario Trump is describing. He is assaulting someone, and they are traumatized and in shock and don't fight back. None of this implies consent. His use of his status: ie. Fame and fortune- adds to the power differential, and adds to the shock and trauma factor. (Here is this famous person and he just grabbed my genitals! Help! What do I do! He is a powerful person and I'm so scared! He is a celebrity- who will believe me?!! )

It makes it even more disgusting that he knowingly uses his celebrity and fame status to s-xually assault women, knowing how the trauma is compounded because of it. It's the same for other people in positions of power, such as Rabbis, priests, doctors, teachers- the power overwhelms the victim, making it that much harder to fight back


Roses, you voted for Hillary. How can you vote for someone who attacked the victims of her husband's s-xual assaults? How can you vote for someone who got a child rapist off by attacking the 12 year old victim on the stand?
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Jeanette




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:05 pm
4Pom, my workplace has policies on discussing politics at work as well as policies on bullying and gossip. Human nature is human nature but I like working in a place where these policies are clearly spelled out. It's like saying that it's silly that shulchan aruch spells out human behavior in such exhaustive detail when frum people can be just as nasty and hypocritical as everyone else. You can be a naval birshus hatorah so to speak but at least when we all profess to the same code of conduct it smooths over our social interactions.

It's not even like Trump is more plain spoken and blunt than people would like. He bullies people. He picks on people weaker than him. He'll gladly destroy your life just because you criticized him. He's not "punching back." He's using the power of his position to taunt and threaten people who pose very little risk to him.

I would not vote for the Democratic equivalent of Trump, whoever that may be. Not even for liberal judges or Medicaid for all. The harm it does to the fabric of this country to have someone like Trump in charge is not worth the policy gains.
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4pom




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:40 pm
small bean wrote:
Seriously why don't your kids know that we dont idolize politicians? Why dont they know what's going on? Why are they not aware of politics on a deeper level? Why do you leave them to learn this stuff in school? This is really a new thread.

I don't know any Rabbi or any person that thinks that trump is a role model. It bothers me that people can't see two things at the same time.

And sorry hillary would be president, we wouldn't be bashing her morality all day either. And she is worse than him in that sense.. she is a horrible person and for some reason that wouldn't be the converation.


I'm talking about my preschool aged kids. Who I chose not to discuss politics with. - possibly my mistake.

I also don't know any Rabbis that think Trump is a role model. But there's no mention of it. And kids can be taught more than black and white but they aren't. I didn't want to talk to my younger kids about Trump
-clearly that was my mistake. I don't like the one side they heard from school and I am not I comfortable with seeing Trump invited to honarary orthodox affairs.

And regarding Hillary I'd have similar issues. I'm not one sided about this.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:42 pm
Jeanette wrote:
4Pom, my workplace has policies on discussing politics at work as well as policies on bullying and gossip. Human nature is human nature but I like working in a place where these policies are clearly spelled out. It's like saying that it's silly that shulchan aruch spells out human behavior in such exhaustive detail when frum people can be just as nasty and hypocritical as everyone else. You can be a naval birshus hatorah so to speak but at least when we all profess to the same code of conduct it smooths over our social interactions.

It's not even like Trump is more plain spoken and blunt than people would like. He bullies people. He picks on people weaker than him. He'll gladly destroy your life just because you criticized him. He's not "punching back." He's using the power of his position to taunt and threaten people who pose very little risk to him.

I would not vote for the Democratic equivalent of Trump, whoever that may be. Not even for liberal judges or Medicaid for all. The harm it does to the fabric of this country to have someone like Trump in charge is not worth the policy gains.


How has trump impacted your life negatively?

I dont know nothing changed for me personally, except the fact that I paid less taxes.
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itsmeima




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:43 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I would not vote for the Democratic equivalent of Trump, whoever that may be. Not even for liberal judges or Medicaid for all. The harm it does to the fabric of this country to have someone like Trump in charge is not worth the policy gains.


Same here!
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:45 pm
4pom wrote:
I'm talking about my preschool aged kids. Who I chose not to discuss politics with. - possibly my mistake.

I also don't know any Rabbis that think Trump is a role model. But there's no mention of it. And kids can be taught more than black and white but they aren't. I didn't want to talk to my younger kids about Trump
-clearly that was my mistake. I don't like the one side they heard from school and I am not I comfortable with seeing Trump invited to honarary orthodox affairs.

And regarding Hillary I'd have similar issues. I'm not one sided about this.


It's because kids hear what they want to hear. It is our job as parents to talk about these things and all things. Kids will hear a one sided view on every topic and we need to enlighten them.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:47 pm
I think obama set the stage for trump. He was an extremely polarizing president. He race batted. He politicized everything.

I think he was worse for the fabric of the country because he was subtle about it.

I also think he impacted my life negatively with the ACA.
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Jeanette




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:09 pm
So this might be a little flame worthy but that's why I'm putting my comments here in this thread.

Defending Trump's "Grab them by the..." comment is an example of what I would call twisting yourself into a pretzel. And my question is, for what? Is it so important to you to preserve the right of powerful men to assault women?

I get that there are things women can do to protect themselves. They can carry mace. Stiletto heel to the face. They could avoid putting themselves into vulnerable positions. But all this type of "advice" does is perpetuate rape culture where man has a natural right to force himself on a woman and the onus is on her to fight him off by any means necessary. What if it was understood by men and women alike that just because she's a woman and just because you're richer, bigger, stronger or more powerful, that doesn't give you the right to lay a hand on her? What if women ARE fighting back, through MeToo, through telling their stories and finally exposing the men who thought they could get away with abusing women with impunity?
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:17 pm
Me too is a scam movement. Because we still pick and choose who to believe.

Thay being said no one thinks that was okay to say. No one thinks it is okay to do it either.

No one is defending that it was said.

Just the fact that that comment is what makes you hate trump is a double standard. Hillary was not a protector of women who were raped. I don't see the democrats harping on all the gross and immoral stuff their people have done and continue to do. Think Katie hill as the most recent one. She was turned into a victim.

That being said, no one credible came forward and said, hey trump grabbed me and no Republican said that's totally cool. That didnt happen. If you recall, conservatives did not support Roy Moore because there were so many credible women.

If trump would have raped stormy daniels and not paid her for relations, conservatives would have been the first ones to to denounce.

When that video broke every honest person said it was horrible. At the end of the day not one women in his staff is complaining about him. If Conway would get up and say trump assaulted her, everyone here would denounce it and think he should be impeached.

No one is excusing trump. All they are saying is stop harping because this problem is huge all over the world. People both men and women abusing their power for relations.

I hope you understand nuance and dont think I'm excusing the behavior.
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itsmeima




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:18 pm
small bean wrote:
How has trump impacted your life negatively?

I dont know nothing changed for me personally, except the fact that I paid less taxes.


I can't listen to the news when the kids are in the car!

Why can't we have a president that watches his language! Is that asking too much nowadays?
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