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itsmeima




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:22 pm
small bean wrote:
Me too is a scam movement. Because we still pick and choose who to believe.

Thay being said no one thinks that was okay to say. No one thinks it is okay to do it either.

No one is defending that it was said.

Just the fact that that comment is what makes you hate trump is a double standard. Hillary was not a protector of women who were raped. I don't see the democrats harping on all the gross and immoral stuff their people have done and continue to do. Think Katie hill as the most recent one. She was turned into a victim.

That being said, no one credible came forward and said, hey trump grabbed me and no Republican said that's totally cool. That didnt happen. If you recall, conservatives did not support Roy Moore because there were so many credible women.

If trump would have raped stormy daniels and not paid her for relations, conservatives would have been the first ones to to denounce.

When that video broke every honest person said it was horrible. At the end of the day not one women in his staff is complaining about him. If Conway would get up and say trump assaulted her, everyone here would denounce it and think he should be impeached.

No one is excusing trump. All they are saying is stop harping because this problem is huge all over the world. People both men and women abusing their power for relations.

I hope you understand nuance and dont think I'm excusing the behavior.


Another perfect example.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:22 pm
itsmeima wrote:
I can't listen to the news when the kids are in the car!

Why can't we have a president that watches his language! Is that asking too much nowadays?


Seriously? I hope you dont let your kids listen to anything or read any books.,

Why can't you talk to your kids and explain to them what you disagree about.

Would you not let your kids watch a Democrat debate? Or would you not let them listen to an interview?
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itsmeima




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:25 pm
small bean wrote:
Seriously? I hope you dont let your kids listen to anything or read any books.,

Why can't you talk to your kids and explain to them what you disagree about.

Would you not let your kids watch a Democrat debate? Or would you not let them listen to an interview?


It's not the policies that bother me, my kids are too young for that, it's the language!
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:30 pm
itsmeima wrote:
It's not the policies that bother me, my kids are too young for that, it's the language!


I'm pretty conservative when it comes to language and trump does not say anything worse then anyone else in the news. So this is not a trump problem. How often did you listen to the news before trump? This is not a new problem.

This is a world morality problem, and honestly you can either decide you won't listen to any questionable ideas or language around your kids or you can allow your kids to hear it and explain to them that it is not nice to talk like that.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:36 pm
The thing about trump is, whichever direction you look there's a problem.

Is it just the way he talks about people?

It's the way he treats women.
It's the way he runs his businesses. (Multiple bankruptcies. Failure to pay workers. Inflating his worth for loan purposes, deflating it for tax purposes.)
It's his impulsive decision making
It's his incoherent policies.
It's his subservience to dictators and belligerance towards allies.
It's his pettiness and small mindedness.
It's his whininess and insecurity.

Every politician has flaws. Every politician has stories in their past they should be ashamed of. But I don't know anyone else with flaws in as many areas as Trump, and as devoid of redeeming values.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:38 pm
Jeanette wrote:
So this might be a little flame worthy but that's why I'm putting my comments here in this thread.

Defending Trump's "Grab them by the..." comment is an example of what I would call twisting yourself into a pretzel. And my question is, for what? Is it so important to you to preserve the right of powerful men to assault women?

I get that there are things women can do to protect themselves. They can carry mace. Stiletto heel to the face. They could avoid putting themselves into vulnerable positions. But all this type of "advice" does is perpetuate rape culture where man has a natural right to force himself on a woman and the onus is on her to fight him off by any means necessary. What if it was understood by men and women alike that just because she's a woman and just because you're richer, bigger, stronger or more powerful, that doesn't give you the right to lay a hand on her? What if women ARE fighting back, through MeToo, through telling their stories and finally exposing the men who thought they could get away with abusing women with impunity?

What is important to me is not to infantalize women by convincing them that they are victims of some invisible "rape culture."

In fact, even hearing that expression from women living in North America sickens me. "Rape culture" is not being approached or even pressured for s-x. It is not even s-xual harassment in the workplace. "Rape culture" is what exists in countries in which women are stoned to death for being victims of rape; where the frequency of gang rape makes it impossible for women to travel by public transportation; where the response to rape is an honor killing of the victim.

People are messy and complex, and the lines between persistence, pressure, harassment, and transactional s-x are often blurred. As many of us predicted, the #MeToo movement overlooked all these nuances and more.

There is an answer, of course: the promotion of chivalry and masculine virtues. But if you recall, women objected to chivalry because women were being "protected" from employment, mortgages, education, etc. Having thrown out the baby with the bathwater, we're now unhappy with the deal we made.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:40 pm
Jeanette wrote:
The thing about trump is, whichever direction you look there's a problem.

Is it just the way he talks about people?

It's the way he treats women.
It's the way he runs his businesses. (Multiple bankruptcies. Failure to pay workers. Inflating his worth for loan purposes, deflating it for tax purposes.)
It's his impulsive decision making
It's his incoherent policies.
It's his subservience to dictators and belligerance towards allies.
It's his pettiness and small mindedness.
It's his whininess and insecurity.

Every politician has flaws. Every politician has stories in their past they should be ashamed of. But I don't know anyone else with flaws in as many areas as Trump, and as devoid of redeeming values.


This is media portrayal. This is not actually true across the board. And I'm not going to go through each point because I believe you know that and dont want to say that.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:50 pm
Fox wrote:
What is important to me is not to infantalize women by convincing them that they are victims of some invisible "rape culture."

In fact, even hearing that expression from women living in North America sickens me. "Rape culture" is not being approached or even pressured for s-x. It is not even s-xual harassment in the workplace. "Rape culture" is what exists in countries in which women are stoned to death for being victims of rape; where the frequency of gang rape makes it impossible for women to travel by public transportation; where the response to rape is an honor killing of the victim.

People are messy and complex, and the lines between persistence, pressure, harassment, and transactional s-x are often blurred. As many of us predicted, the #MeToo movement overlooked all these nuances and more.

There is an answer, of course: the promotion of chivalry and masculine virtues. But if you recall, women objected to chivalry because women were being "protected" from employment, mortgages, education, etc. Having thrown out the baby with the bathwater, we're now unhappy with the deal we made.


I have no idea why you insist on the most extreme definition of rape culture to exclusion.

Yes, rape culture includes the scenarios you described in third world countries. It may surprise you that there is plenty of that level of brutality and more here in the US.

And the lines are very clear about what constitutes consent. Verbal consent between adults. No power differentials. It's not that complicated or confusing. I see no reason to exclude violations of the above, and draw these very serious lines. I see no reason to minimize the severity or affects of any form of s-xual violence.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 12:03 am
roses wrote:
It may surprise you that there is plenty of that level of brutality and more here in the US.

What leads you to believe that I would be surprised?

The fact that I feel you are grossly dumbing down the complexities of the problem? Or perhaps because you see me as a poster who is not well-read regarding the matters on which I post?

Whatever the reasoning, claiming that I would be surprised appears to me to be a passive-aggressive attempt to make me seem naive and ill-informed.

Now, perhaps I am naive and/or ill-informed. That's certainly possible. But you need to actually persuade -- not just make unsubstantiated claims that you know better.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 12:16 am
Fox wrote:
What leads you to believe that I would be surprised?

The fact that I feel you are grossly dumbing down the complexities of the problem? Or perhaps because you see me as a poster who is not well-read regarding the matters on which I post?

Whatever the reasoning, claiming that I would be surprised appears to me to be a passive-aggressive attempt to make me seem naive and ill-informed.

Now, perhaps I am naive and/or ill-informed. That's certainly possible. But you need to actually persuade -- not just make unsubstantiated claims that you know better.


Since you asked, you do come across as underinformed and lacking in comprehension of the issues. But again, most people are underinformed about s-xual violence, so it's pretty common. There is only so far one can go with reading in terms of depth and breadth of understanding.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:14 am
roses wrote:
Since you asked, you do come across as underinformed and lacking in comprehension of the issues. But again, most people are underinformed about s-xual violence, so it's pretty common. There is only so far one can go with reading in terms of depth and breadth of understanding.

That's odd, since I don't think I've posted that much about s-xual violence recently.

Dare I ask what you consider a more comprehensive form of education than, say, reading research on s-xual violence?
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:22 am
Question. Do you believe women are victims in america in the year 2019?
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:30 am
Another question are women the only ones who get s-xually assaulted?
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:43 am
roses wrote:
I have no idea why you insist on the most extreme definition of rape culture to exclusion.

Yes, rape culture includes the scenarios you described in third world countries. It may surprise you that there is plenty of that level of brutality and more here in the US.

And the lines are very clear about what constitutes consent. Verbal consent between adults. No power differentials. It's not that complicated or confusing. I see no reason to exclude violations of the above, and draw these very serious lines. I see no reason to minimize the severity or affects of any form of s-xual violence.

Are you classifying any incidence of zxual interaction in which there is not explicit verbal consent as "rape?"

If my husband leans over and gives me a peck on the cheek without asking and receiving my explicit permission, is that contributing to "rape culture?" To "zxual violence?" That is what your post makes it sound like.

By that definition, then, okay, the US has a "brutal rape culture," just like Botswana. It seems the goalposts have suddenly shifted *way* over.

That is clearly ridiculous.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 7:12 am
Oops wrong thread
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itsmeima




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 8:53 am
small bean wrote:
Question. Do you believe women are victims in america in the year 2019?


What a stupid question! We all know it can happen to anyone.

I do believe there are way too many victims.

What #bestbubby said was disgusting and posting a question instead of addressing the issue, is exactly what OP is talking about...
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itsmeima




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 9:01 am
small bean wrote:
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to language and trump does not say anything worse then anyone else in the news. So this is not a trump problem. How often did you listen to the news before trump? This is not a new problem.

This is a world morality problem, and honestly you can either decide you won't listen to any questionable ideas or language around your kids or you can allow your kids to hear it and explain to them that it is not nice to talk like that.


p****. b.s.. ***.

Totally normal words in the media before Trump came along!
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 9:09 am
itsmeima wrote:
p****. b.s.. ***.

Totally normal words in the media before Trump came along!


You must all be younger than me. When my children were little, this was playing on all media outlets - the exact definition of what constitutes "s-xual relations". I assure you the language used to discuss this issue was quite descriptive. It is ludicrous to state that it is this president who lowered the bar.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 9:11 am
itsmeima wrote:
p****. b.s.. ***.

Totally normal words in the media before Trump came along!


You clearly didnt listen to the news before trump. When I was a kid it wasn't clean. I dont know what world you live in that media was clean 5 years ago. It wasnt clean 20 years ago.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 9:13 am
DrMom wrote:
Are you classifying any incidence of zxual interaction in which there is not explicit verbal consent as "rape?"

If my husband leans over and gives me a peck on the cheek without asking and receiving my explicit permission, is that contributing to "rape culture?" To "zxual violence?" That is what your post makes it sound like.

By that definition, then, okay, the US has a "brutal rape culture," just like Botswana. It seems the goalposts have suddenly shifted *way* over.

That is clearly ridiculous.


The context of a peck on the cheek from a husband to a wife is quite different from the context of a celebrity/rich person grabbing the genitals of a random woman. Wouldn't you agree that the default is that in the husband-wife case, the peck on the cheek is allowed, unless she indicates that she is not interested, while in the not-romantically involved genitals-grabbing case, the grabbing is not allowed, unless she indicates that she is interested?

So, just quoting your terminology
Quote:
That is clearly ridiculous
I would say that your argument is the one that is ridiculous.
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