Imagine the Outrage

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:14 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

I only posted twice so far.

I'm just stating the truth. Do you have a problem with the truth? Is it ok for a woman to dress provocatively and cause a man to be punished? Why is that ok in your book?

Harming innocent children is terrible, right? But spiritually harming men... is totally ok, right?

(I'm not accusing anyone on this thread of being deliberately provocative. This scenario is completely theoretical, talking about an unknown woman who deliberately dresses provocatively. Just wanted to be sure I'm clear).

Neither one is okay! No one is saying that dressing provocatively is okay! (Though "not tzniusdik" and "provocative" are not necessarily synonymous.)

What we are saying is that the degree of those sins is VASTLY different! Harming innocent children is WORLDS worse! And so few in our community even talk about that. They cover it up, they pretend it never happens, they pat themselves on the back for being so superior to those awful g0yim and their perverted ways.

(ETA: oh, and zaq probably mixed you up with Orange since you sounded like you were just defending her rhetoric.)

amother

Beige

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:17 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Please take out the word "you," even in the collective "you" sense.

I don't believe that a child born from intercourse during which the man has improper thoughts causes the child to be born with spiritual deficiencies. That mitigates your point to a large extent.

If a woman causes a man to sin - yes, she is oveir on לפני עור לא תתן מכשול. That's only if she actually caused him to sin - not if she did her part and he aroused himself. That's his problem and his problem alone.

Do you not think that r@ping women and molesting children - and covering up for/enabling those who do so - are vastly more severe sins than dressing in a non-tzniusdik manner? You don't think the men who are s-x and p-rn addicts are doing things worse than dressing immodestly?

You don't believe that a child born from that union has spiritual deficiencies? This at least, is open and shut halachah.

And you did quite a bit of jumping. From watching [filth] to [filth] addict, from visiting prost*tutes to molesting and raping women. As if all frum men are [filth] addicts, and go around molesting children and raping women. A few sick men do not make an epidemic, and no one thinks these thinks are ok. Come on, let's be real here. Do you really think a man watching p0rn is just as bad as a person molesting a child? And why do you think it's worse to watch p0rn than to dress provocatively? I don't think so.

amother

Azure

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:18 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Stating the truth, or your version of the truth?. It's time to stop repeating words what you were told & go learn for yourself.

And please keep in mind - Hashem is the fairest judge of them all. He doesn't punish anyone for someone else's actions.

amother

Beige

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:20 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Yes, it's time to stop believing what you want to believe and look up the sources. Which I did.

And yes he definitely does punish someone for being michshal someone else. That's the point of tznius, isn't it? Or do you think tznius is hogwash?

The truth is I'm not a fan of using punishment and gehenom in the same sentence as tznius. I think its very wrong to talk to Jewish women that way. But to deny that punishment and gehenom exist is also not the correct path.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:24 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Source, please?

I actually brought up those particular crimes because those were brought up by a different poster before me as sins committed by men which are ignored by the community, in favor of placing the blame of all the world's evils on the backs of women.

I did not say all frum men are any of those things. But are all frum women not tzniusdik? Are most frum women not tzniusdik? (L'halacha, not "my rabbi said that if you don't cover your knees by six inches you will burn in h-ll.")

It's definitely worse for a man to molest a child than to watch p0rn. But watching p0rn is a pretty pervasive problem in the frum community, too. Why isn't that harped upon when tragedy befalls us? Why is it always the women's tznius?

Yes, it's worse to watch p0rn than to dress without tznius!!!!!!! Oh my gosh. I'm so done with this.

amother

Azure

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:27 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Yes, it's time to stop believing what you want to believe and look up the sources. Which I did.

As have I. So in that case, we can move on to the next stage and discuss Shivim Panim L'Torah. And that means that my derech is just as acceptable as yours is. So if you choose the path that is all about women being the root of all evil, along with fear, retributions, and reprisals as the foundation of it, then that's perfectly ok. But its equally ok for me to choose the path that doesn't denigrate women and possesses beauty, understanding with middos at its core.

tigerwife

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:29 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Tznius is a middah. Not being a stumbling block is not the reason we need to be tznius. Saying LH also includes the sin of placing a stumbling block before the blind. The reason we don’t speak LH, though, is not simply to avoid placing the stumbling block. Hope that wasn’t too confusing Smile

In my RWBY, the reason given for tznius in dress (versus behavior which everyone conveniently forgets about) was to cover up a precious treasure, and as cheesy as many find that, I find it preferable to the above.

amother

Beige

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:31 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Please don't put words in my mouth, I NEVER said that women are the root of all evil, neither do I believe it. Of course it's not true.

I just don't understand why women think they have a free pass to do whatever they want.

What IS your derech? That women can dress provocatively and it's ok? I would love to hear you quote one mainstream Rabbi who says it's ok.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:31 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

The word is machshil, not michshal. If you really looked up the sources, you should know that. Can you bring them down here? Which sources did you read? What do they say? Were your sources in the Bnos Melachim or Daughters of Dignity or Oz V'hadar Levusha, by any chance?

But in any case, no, as Chayalle said upthread, the point of tznius is NOT "not to be machshil others." It's actually והצנע לכת עם אלקיך, which covers a variety of behaviors, most of which are unrelated to dress. This מצוה falls on all men and women, and Chazal say בא מיכה והעמידם על שלש - "כי אם עשות משפט ואהבת חסד והצנע לכת עם אלקיך".

הקב"ה punishes someone for being machshil another, but does that mean that every time a man has inappropriate thoughts about a woman, that woman is going to be punished for being machshil him? NO - unless she did not do her part. If she is dressed b'tznius and he sins, that's his problem!

I'm not a fan of using punishment and Gehinnom to teach anything in Yiddishkeit. I think it causes our religion to become one of fear and immobility. But if you want to give a fiery speech about a sin which causes tragedies in this world, don't keep choosing tznius. The world is only 50% women who were created closer to the image of G-d than men are. Think about that. Considering that the man is the one "going out" (yeah, according to this hashkafa, men should be the ones going out, while women should be באוהל), who do you think is causing most of the catastrophes to happen? It ain't the women.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:35 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Did you see ANY woman on this thread say that it's okay to dress provocatively?

Did you see ANY woman on this thread say that it's okay to dress without tznius (which is a step up from provocatively - one can be non-tzniusdik and also non-provocative)?

Did you see ANY woman on this thread say that they have a free pass?

Did you hear ANY Rav EVER blame anything OTHER than tznius for trials, tribulations, and tragedies that befall our people?

tigerwife

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:35 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Think about that. Considering that the man is the one "going out" (yeah, according to this hashkafa, men should be the ones going out, while women should be באוהל), who do you think is causing most of the catastrophes to happen? It ain't the women.

Off topic slightly but I just heard a nice vort about that. Sarah was “beohel” but as we know, she was not hiding away all day; she taught and was mgayir many women! Rather, wherever she went, she took her “ohel”, her values, with her.

amother

Beige

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:36 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Nefesh hachaim is one source. I'll look it up, I have more, just it's been a while.

As for the second paragraph ... that's EXACTLY what I was saying. Glad we agree.

amother

Beige

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:39 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I see them IRL all the time. I'm guessing some of the women I see must be on imamother as well.

Yes, I have read that Rav Shteinman said that the reason for recent tzaros is that people are not careful with hilchos eiruv - the halachos of carrying on shabbos. I can find the source and quote it if you want.

In general, I have never heard a litvish godol saying that tznius is the cause of everything that happens to us.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:42 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Why is it worse for a man to watch p0rn than for a woman to dress provocatively? Source please?

Well, use your seichel. What do you think happens when a man watches p-rn?

וְרוּחַ הַבְּהֵמָה הַיֹּרֶדֶת הִיא לְמַטָּה לָאָרֶץ – זו נשמתן של רשעים שמחממין את עצמן ומוציאין שכבת זרע לבטלה, שכל המחמם את עצמו חייב מיתה, וכל המקשה את עצמו הרי זה משומד, שנאמר (בראשית לח, י): וַיֵּרַע בְּעֵינֵי ה' אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה וַיָּמֶת גַּם אֹתוֹ".

A woman who dresses provocatively is not automatically bringing that.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:48 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

I see them IRL all the time. I'm guessing some of the women I see must be on imamother as well.

You see women who actually say it's okay, or they are nichshal in tznius? Two different things. No one on this thread said it's okay not to dress b'tznius. They just said that it's not the only sin in the world and that boiling everything down to women's tznius is demeaning for us. It seems to absolve men of any wrongdoing, ever, and just lay everything at our feet.

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Yes, I have read that Rav Shteinman said that the reason for recent tzaros is that people are not careful with hilchos eiruv - the halachos of carrying on shabbos. I can find the source and quote it if you want.

That R' Shteinman speech is the outlier, although why he chose eiruv, I'm not sure. Why any Rav ever claims to know why certain things happened is beyond me, too.

In general, I have never heard a litvish godol saying that tznius is the cause of everything that happens to us.[/quote]

Really? I hear it everywhere, every time something bad happens. I particularly remember it when the tragedy of the Sassoon children z'l happened.

amother

Azure

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:56 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

So I'll rephrase. Women are the root of all the world's ills. If a man sins, its because a woman caused it. If a tragedy happens, its because of women. If a child is born with spiritual deficits, it's because a woman caused a man to have improper thoughts during sx. And if a yeshua is needed, a woman has to fix something with herself, in order to clear the air so a yeshua can happen.

Have I got it right this time?

amother

Beige

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:59 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

NO!!!!!!

All I said was, two wrongs don't make a right. That's all. This is wrong and that is wrong. They're both wrong. I don't know how to evaluate severity of aveiros, not my thing.