Imagine the Outrage

amother

Orange

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 11:12 am

There is a clear source that the yetzer hora for a married woman is much stronger than that of a single woman. That's why a married woman needs an extra protection of tznius when she gets married to ensure that men don't look st her inappropriately. The sin of a man looking at a married women inappropriately is very very great and the head covering is supposed to prevent this from happening.
A woman's hair takes on the status of erva after marriage- everyone agrees on this. What is erva? It's clearly explained in Rav Falks Sefer and many other sefarim on tznius. Erva means a body part that has the potential to cause attraction to men. So yes married women's hair needs to be
covered to prevent attraction from men other than her husband.
This is the actual reason for kisui rosh and that is why a nice natural looking wig makes no sense and defeats the purpose of the mitzvah.

amother

Brunette

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 11:15 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Can you bring the source if it's so clear-cut?

R' Falk's sefer is outrageously machmir and is also a perfect example of what Ravenclaw was talking about in her OP.

southernbubby

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 11:23 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I do have sensory issues and they are getting worse as I get older. It's a function of my autoimmune illness. I recognize that it is my problem to deal with and I don't ask others to change their mode of dress to accommodate me.

I actually know a lot of people who don't wear stockings to corporate job interviews. I know people who avoid corporate work environments for many of those reasons. Just because someone doesn't share what their own discomfort is doesn't mean that they are wrong to dress as they want to. There is an attitude that it's not wrong to require people to cover more and it is wrong. Respect goes both ways and if you cannot handle that someone doesn't wear long sleeves (I personally wear short sleeves 99% of the year because heat exacerbates my issues), then you aren't being respectful to them. Even if their reason is only based on personal trauma from being forced for years, your desire to see them dressed a certain way doesn't trump that.

Respect is a two way street. It is not about getting someone to conform to your values.

These are people that are benefitting from the community's largese. It is a slap in the face to those hostesses who are giving time and money. We are also talking about a short period of time that a woman would have to wear something uncomfortable.
I have seen women who totally went OTD wear total tznius at family simchas out of respect so it can be done but I have also seen women wear summer clothes such as sleeveless tops, sandals, etc in cold weather in order to demonstrate that they would not kow tow to the tznius police so I don't think that comfort had much to do with it.

Odelyah

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 11:52 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

If a woman actually studies the reason for the mitzvah of kisui rosh they come to understand why many of today's wigs are totally not ok.
Again this is not about judging anyone. Here are the facts and some real history. Many Gedolim did asur the use of wigs when the heter was first put in place. And this was on ugly wiggy wigs. They felt the wigs were immodest, taken from the non jewish fashions (wigs were very in fashion than among non jews) and halachically a real problem because they researched the original heter from the shiltei giborim and found that when he allowed a woman to wear a wig in the chatzer (courtyard) he never meant a public courtyard he meant a private courtyard. This is why Rav Ovadia Yosef assured wigs - he was brilliant in Halacha and usually very lenient but he wrote that he tried but he could not find a halachic leniemcy for a wig at all. He did not write this only for Sephardim. His isur was based on many poskim (askenazic and Sephardic) including the chasam sofer, the Vilna Goan etc.. that asured wigs. He even wrote in his teshuva that it is a mitzvah to publicize this to everyone.
Something that has such strong halachic backlash from such great Gedolim could never be the ideal. A cloth covering was never a dispute among Gedolim and was worn properly for hundreds of years. If a woman is not sensitive to this topic and wants to show hair she will do so in a sheitel or a snood.

eilu v'eilu-- the Litvish gedolim were real gedolim. (Look up Rav Avraham Yitzchok Bloch.) This was their view. (that saar b'isha erva means that a married woman's actual own hair while attached to her head is erva. and if it is covered by any material, including human hair bound to a cap, then the ervah is covered al pi halacha.) It doesn't have to impact you personally, just as Chacham Yosef's psak is not binding on people who follow a different daas Torah. But please try to have a little respect for other people's right to follow a different Daas Torah than yours, or if they have no mesora of their own, to follow halacha in a style they are comfortable with, and if/when they aspire to higher levels of avodas Hashem, to choose which area/s they want to focus on (there are many), and to not be so dismissive of Torah giants whose views were different than yours.

amother

Orange

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 12:44 pm

I'm not dismissive. The reality is that even the Litvish Gedolim were never Matir today's natural looking wigs that really beautify the wearer. Many screamed about the pritzus of the wigs. And many said that the wig has always been a halachic debate with the cloth head covering being the ideal.
Here are some sources:
Rav Falk writes: the Torah commands a married woman to conceal her hair from the eyes of the public to lessen attraction to herself. An unmarried maiden may attract attention to herself (within the boundaries of tznius) so that She is sought after and eventually married (taanis 13 a and kesubas 52b). A married woman may however neither attract attention to herself (kesubas 73a Rashi v.s. Sahara. See also Rosh and Rivto) nor may a man take an interest in the appearance of an eishas ish, as she is unavailable to everyone but her husband.
A similar but different reason why just a married woman must cover her hair is based on the verse stolen waters are sweet (Mishlei 9:17) due to this phenomenon there is a special yetzer hora towards a married woman since she is an eishas ish (see Sanhedrin 75a and Avoda Zarah 20a)
The mitzvah of kisui Saaros was given to lessen attraction to such a person and safeguard Kedushas Yisroel. See oz vehadar levusha page 265 that in numerous places in the Torah hair is highlighted as a major source of attraction. By commanding the married woman to withhold from the public how she looks in her hair, there is far less danger of a person being drawn to her and kedushas yisrael is guaranteed

amother

Orange

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 12:56 pm

from the book Adorned with Dignity by Mrs. Friedman:
The maalos hammidos teaches: the hair of a married woman is considered immodest and erva and incites a person to forbidden thoughts and desires.
In the peninim book read and approved by Rav Forcheimer it says:
It is a Torah obligation for a married woman to cover her hair whenever she is in public area. Chazal have given the hair of the married woman the status of ervah. This means that the hair as is the case of any other part of the female body that is labeled ervah, can cause a man who sees it to feel attracted to her.

Therefore it's understandable that if a sheitel is worn it can't enhance ones beauty- it's meant to downplay ones beauty so as not to cause attraction from men other than her husband . And this clarifies why a head covering that looks the least like hair fulfills the mitzvah of kisui rosh on a much higher level- a cloth head covering looks nothing like ones hair so it will not atttact provocative attention from men. Cloth can never compete with hair!

amother

Orange

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 1:25 pm

Someone asked for sources so I gave them.
These are not stringincies- this is the explanation for a very important and very misunderstood mitzvah only married women have.
This mitzvah is compared to the tefillin men wear! It has great power if done correctly. The yetzer hora knows this and has made a mess of it
I was happy to learn about it as we're many other women I know who read the books on the subject and hears the teleconferences. Education is empowering!

amother

Brunette

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 1:30 pm

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

I was the one who asked for sources. I wanted you to bring me real sources, not Oz V'Hadar Levusha and Daughters of Dignity. Those both represent stringencies, or at the very least, halacha paskened l'chumra b'yoser!

amother

Pewter

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 4:29 pm

Well this is surely interesting, all of these reasons why married women's hair is so enticing etc, stolen waters due to her being an eishis ish, do not explain why the majority of the poskim I have heard about say that divorced women (who are not actively looking to remarry and who do have children) need to continue to cover their hair. Those answers don't hold water. Now, I really am not looking to remarry but (in a few months) I will not be married, yet according to those many rabbis still need to be covering....sigh...

amother

Apricot

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 6:22 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

From what I understand, after getting married, your hair changes status to become ervah. That's an irreversible change. So even after divorce, your hair remains ervah and must be covered.

Hatzlacha, it's not an easy mitzvah.

zaq

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 6:55 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Rav Falk is KNOWN to be extremely machmir on tzniut.

And if I’m not mistaken, his book is a psak for his community (Gateshead?) and only his community. It is not binding on anyone else whose posek he is not.

Listen to my words, my dear:
Rabbi Falk is Uber-machMIR.
His book is seen on every shelf?
Relax and dinna fash yerself.

Shiv’im panim, or so it’s said,
So stop a while and use your head.
Your reasoning need not be Byzantine;
Ask YOUR rav, which Rav Falk isn’t e’en.

imanonymous

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 10:19 pm

zaq wrote:

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 10:36 pm

zaq wrote:

Do I spy an outlander fan??
For all you frummies on this thread, that's the land outside of the mechitza.