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soap suds




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 04 2019, 11:06 pm
iyar wrote:
Don’t have time for the whole thread but so surprised at this post.
I’m not going to argue about stringencies. I’m always a little put off when people talk about how the Torah changed. The Torah is eternal and unchangeable. That’s one of our core beliefs, an intrinsic part of our Emunah.
Human beings have changed. Our lives have changed. Our planet has changed. (Please no climate change discussions pro or con.) Amazingly we’ve managed for two thousand years to keep Shabbos, to produce kosher meat, to build mikvahs, to procure ink and parchment and write tefillin and mezuzahs, and to pass our mesorah on to our children through increasingly foreign and strange environments.
When I imagine kibbutz galuyos and techiyas hameisim I wonder what our ancestors will say when they get to Yerushalayim and see the gesher ha’meitarim and the rakevet kala and maybe an airplane or two flying overhead. This is not the same world we lived in when we first started out as a nation. It’s been a challenge adapting. Foreign cultures, different climates, electricity, modern technology, reproductive technologies that nobody could have dreamed of even a century ago. Our Torah provides an answer to every question. When do you start saying V’sein tal u’matar in the Southern Hemisphere? How to count sefirah when crossing the International Date Line? What to do if we find ourselves so poor we can only buy oil for Shabbos or Chanukah candles? What to do if we’re so wealthy we can give half our income away and still provide for our family?
Finding the answers isn’t easy. The in-depth study of Torah she’be’al peh isn't simple. (There’s a reason for that but this is getting too long.) We have our Talmidei Chachamim in every generation to guide us. If you’re following your mesorah and your rabbis you’re doing what’s right. There’s no need to cast aspersions at other people’s stringencies or even at your own.
There’s no far right or far left as OP would like to say. There most certainly is right and wrong. That doesn’t look the same for every one of us and that’s fine.
Part of the challenge for each of us is finding the right person to guide us. Listening to someone else and not doing our own thing isn’t a popular value in the foreign culture we find ourselves in right now, but it’s the way we’ve preserved Torah observance and will continue to do so. The personal choice we make is deciding whether that’s a goal we want to pursue or not.
Back to OP, there’s no reason to worry about Mashiach coming and being disappointed to find the mechitza’s in our shuls. There are a lot of responsa on the topic dating back hundreds of years and explaining where this separation between men and women originated (actually during the times of the Bais HaMikdash) and how it was implemented through the centuries. Not my area of expertise by a long shot but since I’m not anon you can pm for the details I’m aware of. Better yet, ask someone really learned.

Beautiful post! It was worth reading through all these pages just for this.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 5:51 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
Do I spy an outlander fan??
For all you frummies on this thread, that's the land outside of the mechitza.

Sorry to disappoint. Robbie Burns.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 7:36 am
southernbubby wrote:
These are people that are benefitting from the community's largese. It is a slap in the face to those hostesses who are giving time and money. We are also talking about a short period of time that a woman would have to wear something uncomfortable.
I have seen women who totally went OTD wear total tznius at family simchas out of respect so it can be done but I have also seen women wear summer clothes such as sleeveless tops, sandals, etc in cold weather in order to demonstrate that they would not kow tow to the tznius police so I don't think that comfort had much to do with it.


I think you should reframe it. You don't know the why behind their wardrobe choice. Instead of looking at the negative, look at the positive. BH your community has resources to help people outside of the standard community member.

(As an aside, many people wear sleeveless tops in the winter and sandals if they are fornal ones - I don't wear sleeveless but I do wear short sleeves all year long!)
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 7:57 am
saw50st8 wrote:
I think you should reframe it. You don't know the why behind their wardrobe choice. Instead of looking at the negative, look at the positive. BH your community has resources to help people outside of the standard community member.

(As an aside, many people wear sleeveless tops in the winter and sandals if they are fornal ones - I don't wear sleeveless but I do wear short sleeves all year long!)


It's nice that the community still includes them but that is separate from the fact that it's disrespectful. There are communities where short sleeves and going without stockings is common and no one views it as disrespectful because it's the norm in those communities but these women were not raised that way and they know that their clothing choices are frowned upon.
You probably wouldn't wander around ultra Chereidi neighborhoods in short sleeves because you know that it's unacceptable to them.
Then some of these women get upset if frum schools won't let mothers come into the building in pants and short sleeves but they knew that the school has strict rules when they enrolled their kids.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 2:31 pm
southernbubby wrote:
It's nice that the community still includes them but that is separate from the fact that it's disrespectful. There are communities where short sleeves and going without stockings is common and no one views it as disrespectful because it's the norm in those communities but these women were not raised that way and they know that their clothing choices are frowned upon.
You probably wouldn't wander around ultra Chereidi neighborhoods in short sleeves because you know that it's unacceptable to them.
Then some of these women get upset if frum schools won't let mothers come into the building in pants and short sleeves but they knew that the school has strict rules when they enrolled their kids.


Unless it's a private walled off neighborhood (in which case I would avoid it), of course I would walk around in short sleeves. A private institution is a little different (all the MO schools I know request mothers come in skirts too, but not everyone complies).

I also think that it is disrespectful to expect someone to change because you are helping them. Respect is a 2 way street even though it is always billed as a one way street.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:03 am
I'm actually really curious if anyone has any different Torah sources (from what I quoted) explaining the mitzvah of kisui rosh
The sources I quoted from Rav Falk and some other places are universally accepted - they are not anyone's personal opinions, they are Torah sources and meant for everyone
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:23 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
I'm actually really curious if anyone has any different Torah sources (from what I quoted) explaining the mitzvah of kisui rosh
The sources I quoted from Rav Falk and some other places are universally accepted - they are not anyone's personal opinions, they are Torah sources and meant for everyone


Uh... what my Rav told me?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:47 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
Unless it's a private walled off neighborhood (in which case I would avoid it), of course I would walk around in short sleeves. A private institution is a little different (all the MO schools I know request mothers come in skirts too, but not everyone complies).

I also think that it is disrespectful to expect someone to change because you are helping them. Respect is a 2 way street even though it is always billed as a one way street.


I do agree with you that it's nice of people to help because they are under no obligation. They could decide not to help someone who can't respect them for a couple of hours.
Most people won't physically attack someone for wearing short sleeves; they just may not be friendly.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 1:14 pm
Of course what ones Rav tells them matters
But I wanted to know if anyone had any actual Torah sources on this topic- not personal opinions or opinions they heard from others. Real Torah sources information with the actual Torah sources listed
No one has posted anything yet and I think it's most likely because there are no other Torah sources explaining a married women's hair status and why it needs to be covered...
The ones I posted have been printed in many sefarim (and honestly really make the most logical sense for why married women need to cover their hair)
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 1:21 pm
Most Ashkenazic Poskim (See Igros Moshe Even HaEzer Vol. II #12) and families, however, followed the lenient opinion regarding wigs. Indeed, the Kaf haChaim (OC 75:19), Mishpetai Uziel (EH Mahadurah Tanina #74), and Yaskil Avdi (Vol. VII EH #16), all prominent Sefardi Poskim also permit the wig. On the other hand, Rav Chaim Palaji (Ruach Chaim EH 21) and Rav Ovadiah Yoseph zatzal (Yabia Omer V EH 5:4), however, follow the stringent view forbidding wigs for Sefardic women.

Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita stated that the Chazon Ish’s wife wore a wig (cited in Meir Oz Vol. III page 829) as did his mother. He also ruled that if a Sefardi studied in an Ashkenazic Yeshiva he may allow his wife to wear a wig, otherwise, she should cover her hair with a kerchief.

All this, of course, relates to a wig with another woman’s hair, but what about one’s own hair?

With One’s Own Hair

The Mishna Brurah (75:15) cites two views in this regard. The first view he cites is that of Rav Yoseph Ben Meir Teumim (1727-1793), author of the Pri Magadim. The Pri Magadim is of the opinion that use of a Peah Nochris, a sheitel, is permitted. The Mishna Brurah then states that it is indicative in the language of the Pri Magadim that he permits the use of one’s own hair in the manufacture of it as well.

The Stringent View

After quoting the Pri Magadim, the Chofetz Chaim then cites the view of the Mogen Giborim (written by the two brothers-in-law, Rav Yosef Shaul Nathanson [1808-1875] and Rav Mordechai Zev Ettinger [1804-1863] and published in two parts) who were stringent in this manner and forbade it.

It is also interesting to note that manuscripts of Rav Teumim have been found in the Bodleian Library at Oxford (1:1500:16419) of his work entitled “Aim LaBina” mentioned by R. Avrohom Meir Livshitz Breizel printed in 2014 which show that days before he passed away, Rav Teumim retracted his whole heter for wigs entirely. Nonetheless, we have a dictum that an author’s more authoritative work will set aside a lesser work that he wrote, even if he wrote it later.

Rav Nissim Karelitz Shlita (Chut Shaini Shabbos III page 272) writes “praised be the one who, in her tznius, can fulfill the halacha according to all opinions.” It is clear that Rav Karelitz Shlita believes that, ideally a woman should be stringent in accordance with the view of the Magain Giborim. What, however, is the view of the Mishna Brurah? What is normative halacha?

The earliest source who discusses the topic is Rav Yehoshua Boaz Ben Shimon Boruch (d. 1557) of Northern Italy, the author of the Shiltei Giborim. He writes on tractate Shabbos (64b) that the wig is permitted and it makes no difference whether it is her own hair or that of another woman. He also shows that this is clearly referring to a married woman because the Gemorah states that she wears it so that she not be found unappealing in the eyes of her husband.

The Levush, however, forbade the use of a person’s own hair, disagreeing with the Darchei Moshe in (YD 303) who indicates that it is permitted. The Ateres Zkainim also understands the Ramah as permitting it with one’s own hair.

The Be’er Haitev’s View

It would seem that the fact that Be’er Haitev does not even cite the more stringent view of the Levush is indicative that he holds the halacha is clearly like the Ramah – permitting it. This is borne out by the fact that in Even ha’Ezer (Siman 115) he just cites the view of the Shiltei Giborim without bringing any dissenting view which forbids it.

Conclusion

When the Mishna Brurah cites one authority and then a second one who is stringent, the general understanding that he rules in accordance with the first view (heard from my Rebbe zt”l, Rav Henoch Leibowitz zt”l – a relative of the Chofetz Chaim).

Also, generally speaking, the Pri Magadim is more authoritative than the Mogain Giborim. This combined with the view of the Shiltei Giborim would indicate that as a matter of pure halacha, notwithstanding the recommendation of Rav Nissim Karelitz Shlita, it would be permitted to use one’s own hair.

However, the fact that the Mishna Brurah cites the view forbidding it as well – indicates that it is not being unduly strict to be machmir.

As in all matters of halacha, however, one should always ask one’s own Rav or Posaik as to how to conduct oneself.
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little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 1:36 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
There is a clear source that the yetzer hora for a married woman is much stronger than that of a single woman. That's why a married woman needs an extra protection of tznius when she gets married to ensure that men don't look st her inappropriately. The sin of a man looking at a married women inappropriately is very very great and the head covering is supposed to prevent this from happening.
A woman's hair takes on the status of erva after marriage- everyone agrees on this. What is erva? It's clearly explained in Rav Falks Sefer and many other sefarim on tznius. Erva means a body part that has the potential to cause attraction to men. So yes married women's hair needs to be
covered to prevent attraction from men other than her husband.
This is the actual reason for kisui rosh and that is why a nice natural looking wig makes no sense and defeats the purpose of the mitzvah.


Orange, my Rav (a big posek, yeshivish) explained to me that he holds according to Rav Moshe Feinstein zt"l, who held that the reason for covering ones hair is that after marriage a woman's hair takes on a sensual ruach that is reserved for her husband, and it must be physically covered. What you cover it with is irrelevant-let it be a dish towel, or someone elses's hair-it just must physically cover the ruach hair that's for the husband. He specifically stressed it has nothing to do with tznius, and the mitzvah of looking tzniusdik always applied before, and continues to apply after marriage, but has nothing to do with the mitzvah of covering hair.

Different Rabannim hold differently. On ALL topics.

Incidentally, my Rav advised me not to read Rav Falk's book. (And I have no "issues" with tznius. He just said we dont hold by it.)
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little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 2:10 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
Of course what ones Rav tells them matters
But I wanted to know if anyone had any actual Torah sources on this topic- not personal opinions or opinions they heard from others. Real Torah sources information with the actual Torah sources listed
No one has posted anything yet and I think it's most likely because there are no other Torah sources explaining a married women's hair status and why it needs to be covered...
The ones I posted have been printed in many sefarim (and honestly really make the most logical sense for why married women need to cover their hair)


But if what ones Rav tells them matters then....im confused. Do you think people's Rabbanim are telling them things without basing it on Torah sources?? Of course they are! But it is not our job to question the routes our Rabbanim took at arriving at their conclusion.
Im just picturing the scenario.
"Rebi thank you so much for meeting with us after 5 weeks of back and forth missed calls and re-scheduled meetings, we know how busy the Rav is and we really appreciate this...before we begin our list of very important hadracha and halacha questions, we'd first just like to ask....that time when Rebi explained that halaachicly I should do xyz....does Rebi mind providing the source or decision process for that psak?" Can't Believe It
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 2:33 pm
Little neshamala, I honestly think that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Not that I am saying that people should trust their rabbonim and all, but off topic, if someone does want a source, I think they are allowed to ask for one.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 2:39 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
Little neshamala, I honestly think that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Not that I am saying that people should trust their rabbonim and all, but off topic, if someone does want a source, I think they are allowed to ask for one.


Exactly.

I e-mailed R' Yair Hoffman and asked him if he can go through the sources related to some of these issues, especially hair covering. I'll update if he responds.
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little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 3:02 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
Little neshamala, I honestly think that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Not that I am saying that people should trust their rabbonim and all, but off topic, if someone does want a source, I think they are allowed to ask for one.


Youre misunderstanding me. Of course if youre curious ask for a source. To answer your curiosity. But not to see, oh, does the Rav's psak make sense or not!!
We should be able to trust the psak our Rav gives us, without having to question him about his sources.
So if an imamother asks me for sources for why I cover my hair a certain way....my Rav is my source. Im not going to ask him
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 3:18 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
Little neshamala, I honestly think that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Not that I am saying that people should trust their rabbonim and all, but off topic, if someone does want a source, I think they are allowed to ask for one.


Do you also ask your Rav for his source when he paskens hilchos Shabbos? I don't.

In general women don't have smichah, so to ask for a source on a women's only board (hopefully) may not be very fruitful.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 3:38 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
I'm actually really curious if anyone has any different Torah sources (from what I quoted) explaining the mitzvah of kisui rosh
The sources I quoted from Rav Falk and some other places are universally accepted - they are not anyone's personal opinions, they are Torah sources and meant for everyone


Sorry I'm lubavitch and don't follow r falk. I follow my own rebbe who said shaitel is the best.
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little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 07 2019, 5:54 pm
Im just annoyed at having to justify my Rav's psak for my shaitel wearing with sources. He's a big talmid chacham. Im sure he has his sources, even if ive never questioned him for them.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Sat, Dec 07 2019, 6:29 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Do you also ask your Rav for his source when he paskens hilchos Shabbos? I don't.

In general women don't have smichah, so to ask for a source on a women's only board (hopefully) may not be very fruitful.


My Rav tells me what his sources are because he wants me to know. Why not?
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amother
Orange


 

Post Sat, Dec 07 2019, 8:50 pm
Hearing something from a Rav who heard it from another Rav is not really a Torah source. I've never seen anything written anywhere stating that Rav Moshe Feinstein said that the mitzvah of kisui rosh has nothing to do with tznius.
The mitzvah of kisui rosh is ENTIRELY about modesty. And as our exclusive mitzvah it's important for a married woman to understand why we have this mitzvah so it can be kept properly (it is certainly not a chok)
The hair of a woman becomes ervah after marriage- ervah means this body part has the potential to cause s-xual attraction for men.
This is a direct quote from the Sefer Geder Olam written by the Chofetz Chaim:
The Chofetz Chayim composed the following overview on the cover page of his sefer "the Fence of the World":
"Sefer Geder Olam, in which is explained the Torahs obligation for Jewish women to cover their hair. Nowadays there are women who have routinely triviliazed this specific obligation, and more generally have broken down the barriers of modesty. All of these things are the cause of major disasters which all originate from a lack of knowledge. Therefore we have come today to demonstrate to everyone the serious sin inherent in this lifestyle, and its punishment - and by contrast the enormous reward given to those women who are careful in this regard. Perhaps by publicizing this topic, and it's remedy, the breakdown in this fence of modesty will be somewhat repaired and in doing so we will be worthy to repair the breach in Yerushalayim, quickly in our days."
The Chofetz Chaim states repeatedly throughout this sefer how not covering hair (of a married woman) is a breach of modesty and how if women are uncovering their hair to beautify themselves they and their families will be severely punished
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