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etky




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 2:57 am
Ravenclaw wrote:
I used to think that the more stringent you were, the more authentic your yiddishkeit. I used to think that whoever wasn't far right must just be too morally weak, or that "this generation' was falling.

I have since changed my perspective a lot.

Imagine moshiach comes, and the bais hamikdash is built exactly as it was then. How many people can you see rioting at the lack of tznius of the ezras nashim? It was simply a balcony. Any man could crane his neck up and--gasp--see a woman! We need a wall with a reflective mirror or a sheet of plastic with tiny little holes that you can hardly see through.

When you start actually looking at the Torah, it becomes apparent how different the way we do things now is. And not always because we are "worse" and not as stringent.


It was a balcony that was erected at some point after the (Second) Temple was first built, for keeping the genders separate during simchat beit Hashoeva and Hakhel when there was a huge press of people, in order to prevent "kalut rosh" (levity). The rest of the year, according to most opinions, the Ezrat Nashim was a mixed venue where eveyone mingled freely. It was called Ezrat Nashim because it was the only place in the Mikdash where women were permitted. They could not go into the inner Ezrat Yisrael where the korbanot were sacrificed.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:12 am
Odelyah wrote:
we do not learn tznius l'maasah from Yehuda and Tamar-- this was just how all women dressed in that Arab type society at that time, pre-matan Torah etc.


Interesting. That was not what I learned.
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amother




Olive


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:17 am
LovesHashem wrote:
Interesting. That was not what I learned.


How did you think Middle Eastern women dressed back then?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:32 am
What about all the women in Mitzrayim, who used their mirrors to beautify themselves. They did up their hair, used perfumes and cosmetics, and went out in the field to seduce their husbands. Yes, they actually left the house looking all fancied up, and it was considered a great merit for them.

Personally, I'll be happy to wear a burqa - when men set an example and start wearing them first.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:47 am
A lot of religious beliefs of most religions evolved over time in response to societal influences.
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:55 am
Ravenclaw wrote:
I used to think that the more stringent you were, the more authentic your yiddishkeit. I used to think that whoever wasn't far right must just be too morally weak, or that "this generation' was falling.

I have since changed my perspective a lot.

Imagine moshiach comes, and the bais hamikdash is built exactly as it was then. How many people can you see rioting at the lack of tznius of the ezras nashim? It was simply a balcony. Any man could crane his neck up and--gasp--see a woman! We need a wall with a reflective mirror or a sheet of plastic with tiny little holes that you can hardly see through.

When you start actually looking at the Torah, it becomes apparent how different the way we do things now is. And not always because we are "worse" and not as stringent.


And I heard in a shiur that on the Har Habayis, you weren't allowed to wear anything on your feet. That includes shoes and stockings.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 10:13 am
Chayalle wrote:
And I heard in a shiur that on the Har Habayis, you weren't allowed to wear anything on your feet. That includes shoes and stockings.


Probably a greater percentage of society wore open shoes or no shoes back then so it had no bearing on comparative modesty between Jews and non-Jews but eventually bare feet were viewed in general society as degrading.
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Iymnok




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 10:16 am
It’s possible that the barefoot thing is a misnomer. We know that your shoes need to be removed. But to David be barefoot only applies to the kohanim. It is assur for a kohen to do the avoidance in anything other than the bigdei kehuna.
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amother




Orange


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 11:42 am
There are many sources that show how modesty is super important to Hashem- it's actually the most important mitzvah for a woman.
And yes, the whole point of modesty is to not cause men to stumble. That's why halschically a married woman can uncover her hair and dress immodestly at home, but is forbidden to do so when men are around. Obviously there is a concept of being modest in the home too because a woman is always in front of Hashem but it's not Halacha. Men have to guard their eyes and we have to help them do so.
And yes many of today's wigs and cosmetics anger Hashem. How do I know this? Because many Gedolim have said so (I could starting quoting all the Gedolim here but I don't think women will be interested in reading all of it) there are sources in the navi
Yeshaya about eye makeup being one of the reasons for the destruction of the bais hamikdosh! And many Gedolim screamed about the pritzus if the wigs- even the ones from fifty years ago.
The reality is that anything that accentuates and attracts male attention is considered immodest. And it's written straight out in Devarim that when there is immodesty in our camps Hashem leaves us (and that's when tragedies happen) this is why many Rabbanim will bring up the topic of tznius when tragedies happen. Not to annoy us but because there are very strong sources connecting immodesty with tragedies.
Are Gedolim endorsing burkas right now? No. But they are not causing illness and tragedies- they should really just be left alone. Unfortunately it's the women that are immodest that are really harming the klal- causing Hashem to leave us shed tragedies to occur. It's not about judging anyone, it's about what is happening today - where many women are walking around looking super glamorous and provocative and causing so much harm unintentionally.
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singleagain




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 12:00 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:

And yes, the whole point of modesty is to not cause men to stumble.



I was under the impression it was a chok.. that we don't know the exact reason
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amother




Brunette


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 12:17 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
There are many sources that show how modesty is super important to Hashem- it's actually the most important mitzvah for a woman.
And yes, the whole point of modesty is to not cause men to stumble. That's why halschically a married woman can uncover her hair and dress immodestly at home, but is forbidden to do so when men are around. Obviously there is a concept of being modest in the home too because a woman is always in front of Hashem but it's not Halacha. Men have to guard their eyes and we have to help them do so.
And yes many of today's wigs and cosmetics anger Hashem. How do I know this? Because many Gedolim have said so (I could starting quoting all the Gedolim here but I don't think women will be interested in reading all of it) there are sources in the navi
Yeshaya about eye makeup being one of the reasons for the destruction of the bais hamikdosh! And many Gedolim screamed about the pritzus if the wigs- even the ones from fifty years ago.
The reality is that anything that accentuates and attracts male attention is considered immodest. And it's written straight out in Devarim that when there is immodesty in our camps Hashem leaves us (and that's when tragedies happen) this is why many Rabbanim will bring up the topic of tznius when tragedies happen. Not to annoy us but because there are very strong sources connecting immodesty with tragedies.
Are Gedolim endorsing burkas right now? No. But they are not causing illness and tragedies- they should really just be left alone. Unfortunately it's the women that are immodest that are really harming the klal- causing Hashem to leave us shed tragedies to occur. It's not about judging anyone, it's about what is happening today - where many women are walking around looking super glamorous and provocative and causing so much harm unintentionally.


I think I just read my 11th grade Chumash notes. Applause
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amother




Lilac


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 12:38 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
There are many sources that show how modesty is super important to Hashem- it's actually the most important mitzvah for a woman.
And yes, the whole point of modesty is to not cause men to stumble. That's why halschically a married woman can uncover her hair and dress immodestly at home, but is forbidden to do so when men are around. Obviously there is a concept of being modest in the home too because a woman is always in front of Hashem but it's not Halacha. Men have to guard their eyes and we have to help them do so.
And yes many of today's wigs and cosmetics anger Hashem. How do I know this? Because many Gedolim have said so (I could starting quoting all the Gedolim here but I don't think women will be interested in reading all of it) there are sources in the navi
Yeshaya about eye makeup being one of the reasons for the destruction of the bais hamikdosh! And many Gedolim screamed about the pritzus if the wigs- even the ones from fifty years ago.
The reality is that anything that accentuates and attracts male attention is considered immodest. And it's written straight out in Devarim that when there is immodesty in our camps Hashem leaves us (and that's when tragedies happen) this is why many Rabbanim will bring up the topic of tznius when tragedies happen. Not to annoy us but because there are very strong sources connecting immodesty with tragedies.
Are Gedolim endorsing burkas right now? No. But they are not causing illness and tragedies- they should really just be left alone. Unfortunately it's the women that are immodest that are really harming the klal- causing Hashem to leave us shed tragedies to occur. It's not about judging anyone, it's about what is happening today - where many women are walking around looking super glamorous and provocative and causing so much harm unintentionally.


Those same gedolim banned the internet. Just sayin.
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amother




Aubergine


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 2:31 pm
trixx wrote:
How about - I was thinking this past week - Yaakov kisses rochel in the parsha. If the Torah were being written by any Jewish author today let alone a rav, that sentence would been edited out so fast.


How's this for odd: The Torah specifically says that Rivka was a besulah and had known no other man. And then Rashi points out that she was three.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 2:35 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
Yes!
I believe in the story of Yehudah and Tamar at the time it was common for women who wanted to dress sl*tty to wear a complete burka and face covering - leaving one eye uncovered full of makeup - Hashem was very angered by that.

You can be "Tzniyus" but not really tzniyus at all.


Do you know that there are very few times in the Torah where Hashem outright says that He is "angered" by something.

It doesn't say that Hashem was angered by someone wearing eye makeup. Let's not make up stories here, imagining we know how Hashem feels. It DOES say that Hashem gets angry when we worship false idols and when men get angry.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 2:37 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Do you know that there are very few times in the Torah where Hashem outright says that He is "angered" by something.

It doesn't say that Hashem was angered by someone wearing eye makeup. Let's not make up stories here, imagining we know how Hashem feels. It DOES say that Hashem gets angry when we worship false idols and when men get angry.


I wear eye makeup. That was not the point of my post.
I don't think eye makeup is wrong...
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amother




Brunette


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 2:42 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Do you know that there are very few times in the Torah where Hashem outright says that He is "angered" by something.

It doesn't say that Hashem was angered by someone wearing eye makeup. Let's not make up stories here, imagining we know how Hashem feels. It DOES say that Hashem gets angry when we worship false idols and when men get angry.


It doesn't say some variation of ויחר אף ה quite a few times?
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octopus




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 2:55 pm
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
How's this for odd: The Torah specifically says that Rivka was a besulah and had known no other man. And then Rashi points out that she was three.


Thank you for posting this. My Rav had said something in connection with this and you just threw more clarity on the matter. The whole concept of Rivkah being 3 is so hard to understand (and it's not pshat and there are different opinions on her age). Eliezer has kfitzas haderech in order to get to her. And that was not a necessary neis. My Rav said that it is very possible that Hashem saw that Rivkah had to get out of besuel's house. She lived in the most perverted household. She was a beautiful 3 year old. She did not have a sister (like leah and rachel had eachother to protect one another). It is very possible that someone had designs for her , and eliezer was zoche to kefitzas haderech to get her out of that environment so she could go on and be an eim b'yisrael. And by the way, according to the marrying at age 3, Rivkah was betrothed at age 3, but did not actually marry yitzchak until age 13. So she spent a decade being raised under avraham's roof. And if the pasuk specifically says she was a besula, I take it to mean she was saved just in time. She was not abused in evil besuel's household.

ETA: I think the torah even repeats the kfitzas haderech which is so interesting because the torah never uses extra words. It was necessary to save rivkah


Last edited by octopus on Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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octopus




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 2:57 pm
so many posters over they years have used the rivkah being age 3 and asking about how could this be? isn't that so perverted?
and this story is just the opposite. It really is about saving a child. Getting married at 13 was common during that time.
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zaq




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:20 pm
Iymnok wrote:
It’s possible that the barefoot thing is a misnomer. We know that your shoes need to be removed. But to David be barefoot only applies to the kohanim. It is assur for a kohen to do the avoidance in anything other than the bigdei kehuna.


Please edit this post. Your autocorrect had a field day.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:21 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
There are many sources that show how modesty is super important to Hashem- it's actually the most important mitzvah for a woman.
And yes, the whole point of modesty is to not cause men to stumble. That's why halschically a married woman can uncover her hair and dress immodestly at home, but is forbidden to do so when men are around. Obviously there is a concept of being modest in the home too because a woman is always in front of Hashem but it's not Halacha. Men have to guard their eyes and we have to help them do so.
And yes many of today's wigs and cosmetics anger Hashem. How do I know this? Because many Gedolim have said so (I could starting quoting all the Gedolim here but I don't think women will be interested in reading all of it) there are sources in the navi
Yeshaya about eye makeup being one of the reasons for the destruction of the bais hamikdosh! And many Gedolim screamed about the pritzus if the wigs- even the ones from fifty years ago.
The reality is that anything that accentuates and attracts male attention is considered immodest. And it's written straight out in Devarim that when there is immodesty in our camps Hashem leaves us (and that's when tragedies happen) this is why many Rabbanim will bring up the topic of tznius when tragedies happen. Not to annoy us but because there are very strong sources connecting immodesty with tragedies.
Are Gedolim endorsing burkas right now? No. But they are not causing illness and tragedies- they should really just be left alone. Unfortunately it's the women that are immodest that are really harming the klal- causing Hashem to leave us shed tragedies to occur. It's not about judging anyone, it's about what is happening today - where many women are walking around looking super glamorous and provocative and causing so much harm unintentionally.

Please give the source in yeshayahu about eye make up Scratching Head wondering
And anyone who says that it is women that are immodest that are harming kla yisrael, all I can say to you is that I hope the cool aid tastes good.

What a terrible thing to say. Bad things happen in the world for any number of reasons. But they are NOT happening because this woman is wearing a long wig or this one is wearing sandals.
And lastly, just because rabbanim say something does not mean it is from god's mouth to them. Rabbis in our days do not have nevua.
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