Imagine the Outrage

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:33 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Please give the source in yeshayahu about eye make up Scratching Head

And anyone who says that it is women that are immodest that are harming kla yisrael, all I can say to you is that I hope the cool aid tastes good.

What a terrible thing to say. Bad things happen in the world for any number of reasons. But they are NOT happening because this woman is wearing a long wig or this one is wearing sandals.
And lastly, just because rabbanim say something does not mean it is from god's mouth to them. Rabbis in our days do not have nevua.

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ה' יַ֚עַן כִּ֤י גָֽבְהוּ֙ בְּנ֣וֹת צִיּ֔וֹן וַתֵּלַ֙כְנָה֙ נְטוּוֺ֣ת נְטוּי֣וֹת גָּר֔וֹן וּֽמְשַׂקְּר֖וֹת עֵינָ֑יִם הָל֤וֹךְ וְטָפֹף֙ תֵּלַ֔כְנָה וּבְרַגְלֵיהֶ֖ם תְּעַכַּֽסְנָה: (ישעיהו פרק ג פסוק טז)

רש"י: "ומשקרות עינים" לשון הבטה, דבר אחר צובעות עיניהם בסיקרא ובכחול

Not saying I agree with that poster (you may be able to tell that I don't AT ALL) but she is technically correct about the Rashi.

Glad you used the word Kool Aid. That was my alternative to quoting my 11th grade Chumash notes. Wink

zaq

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:33 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

What a terrible thing to say. Bad things happen in the world for any number of reasons. But they are NOT happening because this woman is wearing a long wig or this one is wearing sandals.
And lastly, just because rabbanim say something does not mean it is from god's mouth to them. Rabbis in our days do not have nevua.

Right. G-d is sending typhoons and superstorms because of women wearing Passionate Plum eyeshadow. He’s just fine with the molestation and the fraud. Probably because He’s a He (really not but we have no neuter third person singular pronoun that applies to humans) and most of the molesters and fraudsters are he’s as well. I notice that most of the ones inveighing against women and blaming them for every disaster to hit the planet since Hurricane Gloria are also he’s. Coincidence? I think not.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:39 pm

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Are Gedolim endorsing burkas right now? No. But they are not causing illness and tragedies- they should really just be left alone.

If a grown woman wants to wear a burka, that's one thing. she can stay in her bubble and float her own boat. When I see women forcing that kind of dress on young girls, then yes, I do consider that to be a tragedy. I'm not one to start up or get involved, but I'm not so sure they should be left alone. There are Rabbanim that speak out against extremism, too, and rightfully so. I leave it to our Gedolim to tell Burka women that they are going too far.

Recently someone told me that on a visit to E"Y she was davening at a holy site, and a burka lady came up to her and yelled at her and told her that her tefillos aren't worth anything due to the fact that she was wearing a regular wig and basic makeup. This ( burka) woman was wrong. It is wrong to judge people like that. When the Navi Yeshaya rebuked about makeup, he was not talking about basic, normal makeup but rather about excessive makeup. In fact, regular cosmetics have always been encouraged for women. Ezra and Nechemia instituted takanos to make makeup available to woman to encourage them to look beautiful and to discourage intermarriage with the Kuti women. And many current poskim hold that a wig is a valid and halachically acceptable head-covering, among them R' Chaim Kanievsky. So woman who do this kind of thing are WRONG, period.

zaq

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:41 pm

Chayalle wrote:

No. totally not. The whole point of modesty is "V'hatznei leches im elokecha". This applies equally to men and woman. As taught to me in my BY high school.

And it encompasses far more than just clothing.

Why do we not hear rabbanim excoriating their constituents for their lavish lifestyles, their self-promotion, their gluttony, their love of luxury, their ostentatious homes and their over-the-top weddings (well, ok, some have in fact spoken out against this last one, but only a small fraction)?

etky

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:49 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

So, just to vindicate eye makeup - Rashi brings 2 possibilities for משקרות עיניים .The first perush is that they were giving certain unseemly looks with their eyes. Some translations into English use the word "flirt" for משקרות.
As an interesting aside, the word "mascara" has its roots in Arabic, a semitic language like Hebrew. The word משקרות thus possibly alludes to the use of this type of eye makeup. This is what Rashi meant by סיקרא

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 3:52 pm

etky wrote:

Wow, that's fascinating etky. Thanks for the insight!

imasoftov

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 4:02 pm

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

How's this for odd: The Torah specifically says that Rivka was a besulah and had known no other man. And then Rashi points out that she was three.

"later" would be more accurate than "then", the pasuk you refer to is Bereshit 24:16, at that link you can see Rashi, it does not mention her age there, but in his commentary on Bereshit 25:20

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:25 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

Anyway, this thread is going all over the place. But my main question is what is really authentic Yiddishkeit?

Authentic Yiddishkeit is for each person to do what they are meant to do as a servant in G-d's army. Yes, it's a life's work to figure out exactly what that is. But you with your challenges are not meant to serve G-d in the same way as I am with my challenges.

I wish I could find the quote from R' Hirsch that my uncle read at my brother's bar mitzvah. My brother was struggling very much at the time and had nearly been thrown out of yeshiva. My uncle quoted R' Hirsch as saying that the baker and the talmid chacham each have their role to play, and if the baker sat and learned, he would also be a defector!

So back to your original question about stringency: there are many different ways of serving G-d. Each person needs to find their own shvil hazahav. There is no one right way.

ETA: I found a passage from R' Hirsch that alludes to this idea, if not the quote I was looking for.

amother

Orange

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:32 pm

I think because it's all women here (I hope!) you're just not getting it.
When a man looks at a woman and she's made up with fake hair (which is usually nicer than her own so the whole concept of today's wigs kind of don't make sense) and fitted clothing he is most likely going to have inappropriate thoughts (unless he's not a normal healthy male)
These thoughts tend to lead to very sinful actions which cuz the man to lose his olam hoba which is not very happy ending for eternity. The woman who caused these thoughts (unintentionally or intentionally) is guilty as well and is punished as well. This is not something to be taken lightly- it's considered one if the worst sins and Hashem is not happy about it (that's an understatement)
That is why we have the laws of modesty- to prevent these terrible sins from occurring and to prevent many from losing their entire future life. Women definitely don't like to hear this- who wants to hear that they are accountable for people losing their afterlife. Women also have a really really strong yetzer hora to look beautiful outside- Hashem made us this war so it can be channeled at home only for ones husband. The real test today is to downplay ones looks outside- so yes wearing minimal makeup, less attractive wigs (or better yet cloth head coverings), looser clothing is a tremendous chesed to men and to other women's marriages. And it is on the mitzvah that a woman's future life hinges on. When Hashem created Chava he declared over very single limb- she should be a modest woman. Hashem didn't mention any other mitzvah.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:37 pm

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Another quote from my notes! Yay! Smile

amother

Orange

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:47 pm

This email was sent out to many people by Rav Shmuel Neiman, author of Nine to Five: A guide to modest conduct for today's workplace (I think Rav Neiman sends out daily inspirational emails)

It's very powerful!

Kreivah 11. The prohibition of looking at women

It is prohibited for a man to deliberately gaze at a woman. The poskim rule that this is forbidden only when his intent in doing so is to derive pleasure.

Because of this prohibition, it is essential that before leaving home, a woman should make certain that she will not be placing a stumbling block before the men at her workplace. She must be careful to both dress and walk modestly to avoid attracting attention. It is important to mention that the sheitel a woman wears should not be long,natural looking and attractive as this defeats the purpose of a sheitel. A woman who violates this halacha is as guilty as the men she causes to look at her.

The Skulener Rebbe said this past Rosh Hashana that the women's long sheitels and the women's short clothing are the direct cause to all illnesses

Helpful Suggestion:

It is appropriate to include a clause in a business contract signed with a female employee that she be careful to dress conservatively and maintain a professional and modest demeanor at the workplace.

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:48 pm

Orange-
Do you seriously mean to say that when a man sees a normally dressed woman—not scantily clad or anything, just normal, though perhaps not super frum—and he keeps his part of the deal (doesn’t gaze, etc) he will still probably have bad thoughts and then (because this is what you insinuated) will most likely actually go and m@sturbate about her?

And if this is truly what you meant, then how can any guy manage for even a second in the secular world?? They must be running to the bathroom every other few seconds.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:49 pm

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Once again, the onus is entirely on a woman to avoid attracting attention. We can never just act professionally. Nope, that's still too attention-grabbing.

If a man stumbles, it's the woman's fault automatically? If a man gazes at a woman, that means the woman dressed or acted in a way that caused him to gaze at her?

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:53 pm

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

I love how it’s always the women causing all the illnesses. Not the guys cheating, and walking up to random nonjewish women in the street and offering them 500$ and a motel key...

Not the guys watching all sorts of filth and assaulting their female employees...

Not the guys molesting little innocent boys and girls, shattering their lives forever...

No. It’s the skirts that are 2 inches past the knee instead of four.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 6:55 pm

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

Yep. Because the sins of women, who were created closer to the image of G-d and perform a much lower percentage of the world's worst sins, are always the harbingers of all disasters.