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Money DOES help in most situations
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amother
Tan


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 2:02 pm
Money HELPS but we can't say that the ppl with money have good lives, that's WRONG we can't buy health, happiness, nachas....
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 2:10 pm
mha3484 wrote:
OP I hope hashem sends you the money you need to live your life with menuchas ha nefesh. I also struggle with parnossah. Its super hard.

On a tangent to respond to anyone who things life is always easier when you have more money: This is my personal experience in this world:

I guess I must know the opposite people. I grew up surrounded by and related to lot of wealthy people and honestly, I like my life better even if I struggle to pay my bills. My father struggled to make a parnossah but he was home for dinner and homework each night and that is what I remember as a 35 year old not if we went on vacation or what clothes we had.

As kids, our neighbors and family members who lived the kind of life that allows you to never worry about finances worked 15 hour days and saw their kids on the weekends. I am talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc. My uncle runs a massive company and is very very comfortable but when his kids were small, he traveled two weeks each month. I have an uncle that was a super successful investment banker he maybe was home with his kids one day a week. I have a cousin who is so wealthy his family name is on half of the buildings in my city and it didnt make him not try and kill himself in 8th grade. Hes still bi-polar no matter how much money he has for next 5 generations.

Its really easy to say that money does not solve problems but makes them more managable and its probably true to some degree for the small stuff in life. But it comes to the big stuff, I look at situations that I see in my city where people have experienced horrible tzaras that I hope I never have to experience in my life and the majority of those people are very very well off. Money never make those things better ever ever ever. Im talking death, terminal illness, substance abuse etc. Ill take being broke over this any day.


This is a good post.

Just off the top of my head I'm thinking of two very wealthy individuals and baalei tzedaka whose names are on buildings who died under very mysterious circumstances.

As someone who struggles, I'll also say I'm proud of what I've accomplished and managed to do with my life despite not having money. I have a SIL whose husband brings in good money and they live very comfortably but he doesn't let her make any decisions and she has nothing to fill her days.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 2:26 pm
Totally agree. B"H, we have enough to live on, but we will never be able to afford a house in a Jewish area, which means that rent will always be increasing more than income. We are pregnant with our first, and can manage in our current apartment (not in a Jewish area) for a year, but as baby gets bigger and needs more stuff and space ... I don't know how we will manage. I would like to move to a Jewish area, but that is more expensive. Not to mention tuition in the future! My husband's job is being moved to AZ in March, and he has been looking for and unable to find a new one for three years already, because the entire industry is being moved across the country or outsourced to other countries. He is really too old to start over in a new career, nor could we survive on his begining salary if he did so. I work part time, and feel like between mental health issues and childcare problems, it's not feasible for me to do more. I think that people without these concerns underestimate the bad effects of the constant stress they cause.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 2:47 pm
I agree with OP. Everyone loves to talk about rich people who had terrible lives, because it makes them feel better about themselves. No one says money makes you happy, but it definitely makes life easier.

I remember when I was struggling and going through IVF and I spoke to a very wealthy person who had also been through it. She told me to try to treat myself; if I had an appointment in the city we should go out to eat or get a mani. I remember thinking to myself how she can not fathom that I don’t have $5 to treat myself to a coffee, let alone going out to eat. Fast forward a few years later and I did IVF again in much better financial circumstances. It wasn’t any less hard, but my day was a little easier by the fact that I treated myself to breakfast and paid a babysitter to help me in the afternoon.

Every struggle is that much less difficult when finances aren’t hanging over your head.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 2:53 pm
mha3484 wrote:


Its really easy to say that money does not solve problems but makes them more managable and its probably true to some degree for the small stuff in life. But it comes to the big stuff, I look at situations that I see in my city where people have experienced horrible tzaras that I hope I never have to experience in my life and the majority of those people are very very well off. Money never make those things better ever ever ever. Im talking death, terminal illness, substance abuse etc. Ill take being broke over this any day.


I really don't get this line of reasoning. It would only make sense if poverty is a shield against death, terminal illness, substance, etc.. Unfortunately, it is most definitely not. So if both rich & poor alike are equally hit with those tragic circumstances, wouldn't anyone prefer enduring it being rich?
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amother
Oak


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 2:57 pm
Imagine not having enough to begin with, then finding out that your husband has been using what you thought you had to gamble away! and opening up several credit cards! and borrowing from people! and putting everything up as collateral for more loans! and lying to you about going to work! and finding out you're behind on everything. Yayyyyyyy. Crying
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amother
Gray


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:14 pm
I'm torn on this.

On one hand, b"H my family is a bit more than comfortable (though we live a simple life and most people don't realize) - not super-wealthy, but very comfortable.

I've been through IVF and have some challenging children. I am so grateful to be able to afford treatment without going into debt/taking tzedaka and to be able to take kids to therapy as needed, without worrying about the cost. In that way, money definitely does make life easier.

But I know someone who is mega-wealthy, and I'm privy to many details of his life. It presents a very unique set of difficulties. Never a moment's rest from people who have very sad and very valid plights (most of them, at least); enormous and very public flak when he "doesn't give enough" to someone or some organization ("why isn't Mr. X just bailing them out?? He can afford it"); attempting to raise children who are not spoiled or entitled (b"H my own children are in the dark about our financial status, and we try very hard to keep it that way).

A huge challenge is also that he doesn't know who his true friends are and who just likes him for status purposes - he really lives a lonely life. And the same problem comes up even more strongly in shidduchim for his children. Of course the "great guys" are lining up for his daughters... but it's really hard to know who likes them on their own merit.

Enormous wealth is challenging, too.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:15 pm
There's a reason for the chazal "ani chashuv k'meis".
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:23 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
I'm torn on this.

On one hand, b"H my family is a bit more than comfortable (though we live a simple life and most people don't realize) - not super-wealthy, but very comfortable.

I've been through IVF and have some challenging children. I am so grateful to be able to afford treatment without going into debt/taking tzedaka and to be able to take kids to therapy as needed, without worrying about the cost. In that way, money definitely does make life easier.

But I know someone who is mega-wealthy, and I'm privy to many details of his life. It presents a very unique set of difficulties. Never a moment's rest from people who have very sad and very valid plights (most of them, at least); enormous and very public flak when he "doesn't give enough" to someone or some organization ("why isn't Mr. X just bailing them out?? He can afford it"); attempting to raise children who are not spoiled or entitled (b"H my own children are in the dark about our financial status, and we try very hard to keep it that way).

A huge challenge is also that he doesn't know who his true friends are and who just likes him for status purposes - he really lives a lonely life. And the same problem comes up even more strongly in shidduchim for his children. Of course the "great guys" are lining up for his daughters... but it's really hard to know who likes them on their own merit.

Enormous wealth is challenging, too.


Fine, I'll take plain regular wealthy instead of enormous wealth.
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amother
Papaya


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:27 pm
mha3484 wrote:
OP I hope hashem sends you the money you need to live your life with menuchas ha nefesh. I also struggle with parnossah. Its super hard.

On a tangent to respond to anyone who things life is always easier when you have more money: This is my personal experience in this world:

I guess I must know the opposite people. I grew up surrounded by and related to lot of wealthy people and honestly, I like my life better even if I struggle to pay my bills. My father struggled to make a parnossah but he was home for dinner and homework each night and that is what I remember as a 35 year old not if we went on vacation or what clothes we had.

As kids, our neighbors and family members who lived the kind of life that allows you to never worry about finances worked 15 hour days and saw their kids on the weekends. I am talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc. My uncle runs a massive company and is very very comfortable but when his kids were small, he traveled two weeks each month. I have an uncle that was a super successful investment banker he maybe was home with his kids one day a week. I have a cousin who is so wealthy his family name is on half of the buildings in my city and it didnt make him not try and kill himself in 8th grade. Hes still bi-polar no matter how much money he has for next 5 generations.

Its really easy to say that money does not solve problems but makes them more managable and its probably true to some degree for the small stuff in life. But it comes to the big stuff, I look at situations that I see in my city where people have experienced horrible tzaras that I hope I never have to experience in my life and the majority of those people are very very well off. Money never make those things better ever ever ever. Im talking death, terminal illness, substance abuse etc. Ill take being broke over this any day.


This is what people who don't have money say to make themselves feel better. It's possibly true in some situations but not the rule, and you also have poor people who are working every minute they're awake because they're so desperate to make an extra dollar.

My DH is a business owner who did very well and is now unfortunately struggling. He always had time for the family, and if anything was more emotionally present when he wasn't stressed about money. We also went on so many more family trips, outings, and vacations. Now he's more distant than ever because he's stressed and feels like a failure.
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:41 pm
mha3484 wrote:
OP I hope hashem sends you the money you need to live your life with menuchas ha nefesh. I also struggle with parnossah. Its super hard.

On a tangent to respond to anyone who things life is always easier when you have more money: This is my personal experience in this world:

I guess I must know the opposite people. I grew up surrounded by and related to lot of wealthy people and honestly, I like my life better even if I struggle to pay my bills. My father struggled to make a parnossah but he was home for dinner and homework each night and that is what I remember as a 35 year old not if we went on vacation or what clothes we had.

As kids, our neighbors and family members who lived the kind of life that allows you to never worry about finances worked 15 hour days and saw their kids on the weekends. I am talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc. My uncle runs a massive company and is very very comfortable but when his kids were small, he traveled two weeks each month. I have an uncle that was a super successful investment banker he maybe was home with his kids one day a week. I have a cousin who is so wealthy his family name is on half of the buildings in my city and it didnt make him not try and kill himself in 8th grade. Hes still bi-polar no matter how much money he has for next 5 generations.

Its really easy to say that money does not solve problems but makes them more managable and its probably true to some degree for the small stuff in life. But it comes to the big stuff, I look at situations that I see in my city where people have experienced horrible tzaras that I hope I never have to experience in my life and the majority of those people are very very well off. Money never make those things better ever ever ever. Im talking death, terminal illness, substance abuse etc. Ill take being broke over this any day.


I find your 2nd last paragraph to be very hurtful to those of us with family members who struggle with mental health issues.

Most mental health conditions - like bipolar disorder - are VERY treatable, especially if you have the resources to see the right doctors and get the right kind of help.

I speak from experience, as the mother of a daughter with bipolar disorder. You would never know if you met her. She is a thriving, popular, well-liked student and friend.

What she doesn't know - and I would never tell her - is that being that we are NOT uber-wealthy, getting her the help from top psychiatrists and therapists has very much affected our financial status. We always managed before; now we are thousands of dollars in debt.

I'm sure if your cousin was that wealthy, he should have been able to do something to help his bipolar disorder and manage it such that he would not have been suicidal and wanting to kill himself. It is sad if he didn't. Like someone with diabetes making poor choices regarding their insulin monitoring.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:46 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
maybe if you had money, your current struggles would be solved but hashem would change your struggles in ways that money would not help. for example you may struggle now with working too hard and shalom bayis but maybe if you made 100k more a year, you would cv have a child who isnt well or a health crisis. every single person has their struggles with diff things, I dont believe one struggle is easier than another.

I do NOT agree with this. I bh have enough challenges other than poverty to deal with, all entirely unrelated to our financial situation. Difficult childhood, parent who died young, husband with difficult personality (actually part of the reason for our crazy debt)... Not trying to be a nebech here at all! But I don't believe that having money would be a trade off for different challenges. I am usually happy, put-together, and confident looking. No one would dream of how bad our finances are. Most people think we have more than them, just because my dh and I bh are naturally good looking, and have friendly, humorous personalities. We also both have wealthy parents/ grandparents. I think Hashem is generous enough to give us Parnassa beshefa without having to take anything away from us. There is no set, equal amount of tzarros everyone must have, which means that if someone is rich then they automatically suffer extensively in other areas. It's not so black and white. I daven for abundance. I know He has, I know He loves me, and I know that somehow, for now, this situation is good for me. I just can't fathom how a kind, loving Father can watch His children struggle so much, when He can help them so easily. I just have to imagine Him saying, I love you, my child, and you'll just have to trust me that I want what's best for you, even though you can't see it.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:47 pm
Would it upset some vast eternal plan
If I were a wealthy man!
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:55 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
I find your 2nd last paragraph to be very hurtful to those of us with family members who struggle with mental health issues.

Most mental health conditions - like bipolar disorder - are VERY treatable, especially if you have the resources to see the right doctors and get the right kind of help.

I speak from experience, as the mother of a daughter with bipolar disorder. You would never know if you met her. She is a thriving, popular, well-liked student and friend.

What she doesn't know - and I would never tell her - is that being that we are NOT uber-wealthy, getting her the help from top psychiatrists and therapists has very much affected our financial status. We always managed before; now we are thousands of dollars in debt.

I'm sure if your cousin was that wealthy, he should have been able to do something to help his bipolar disorder and manage it such that he would not have been suicidal and wanting to kill himself. It is sad if he didn't. Like someone with diabetes making poor choices regarding their insulin monitoring.


not every mental illness is treatable. I'm thrilled for you that your daughter got the help she needed. Unfotunately it's really not that simple for everyone. As someone who struggles with mental illness and has a brother who really struggles with mental illness even spending a lot of money. It's not as simple as spend money, make good decisions and then everything will be better. I'm b"H functional for the most part but life is definitely more "challenging", my brother- not so much. He has never gotten married, can't hold down a full time job, still lives with my mother. You have no idea the amount of time, effort and money my mother and brother have put in to help him, the types of therapies, medications... my brother has tried, the side effects he's had...

curious which psychiatrists you have used if they are located in NY area. I can mention them to my brother. Maybe they can help him.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:57 pm
Luck

Langston Hughes

Sometimes a crumb falls
From the tables of joy,
Sometimes a bone
Is flung.

To some people
Love is given,
To others
Only heaven.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 4:03 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Would it upset some vast eternal plan
If I were a wealthy man!


Actually when I heard that song on Fiddler on the Roof I was thinking "I see why Hashem didn't make him rich"

He had no plans of doing anything good with his money, wanted to laze around and give bad advice to the innocent while his wife flaunted their wealth etc.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 4:16 pm
leah233 wrote:
Actually when I heard that song on Fiddler on the Roof I was thinking "I see why Hashem didn't make him rich"

He had no plans of doing anything good with his money, wanted to laze around and give bad advice to the innocent while his wife flaunted their wealth etc.


Maybe that just was the result of burnout of being poor for so long. Maybe if would have had money from early on, he would have different desires.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 4:28 pm
Brachie69 wrote:
Reality lies somewhere in between the two camps.
Virtually no one in life can escape challenges.
It's easy to see and understand how many physical elements of poverty are solved with money.
However there are emotional and relationship struggles that run the gamut and are present in all economic groups.

For most people, being comfortable but not overly wealthy has the best balance of stress and lifestyle enjoyment.


Exactly this. I don't wanna be a billionaire it would make me super anxious and unhappy. I'd be worried 24/7 that my kids would get kidnapped for randsome and that the people around me are just using me for money.

I think upper middle class is nice. (Would be nice lol)
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amother
Azure


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 4:35 pm
mha3484 wrote:
OP I hope hashem sends you the money you need to live your life with menuchas ha nefesh. I also struggle with parnossah. Its super hard.

On a tangent to respond to anyone who things life is always easier when you have more money: This is my personal experience in this world:

I guess I must know the opposite people. I grew up surrounded by and related to lot of wealthy people and honestly, I like my life better even if I struggle to pay my bills. My father struggled to make a parnossah but he was home for dinner and homework each night and that is what I remember as a 35 year old not if we went on vacation or what clothes we had.

As kids, our neighbors and family members who lived the kind of life that allows you to never worry about finances worked 15 hour days and saw their kids on the weekends. I am talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc. My uncle runs a massive company and is very very comfortable but when his kids were small, he traveled two weeks each month. I have an uncle that was a super successful investment banker he maybe was home with his kids one day a week. I have a cousin who is so wealthy his family name is on half of the buildings in my city and it didnt make him not try and kill himself in 8th grade. Hes still bi-polar no matter how much money he has for next 5 generations.

Its really easy to say that money does not solve problems but makes them more managable and its probably true to some degree for the small stuff in life. But it comes to the big stuff, I look at situations that I see in my city where people have experienced horrible tzaras that I hope I never have to experience in my life and the majority of those people are very very well off. Money never make those things better ever ever ever. Im talking death, terminal illness, substance abuse etc. Ill take being broke over this any day.


So you only know rich people who have big problems?
I know a family who is extremely poor and the mother also has cancer.
I know a family that relys on tzedakah and their youngest (1 yrs old) has a terminal illness.
An elderly couple who is struggling to pay rent and the husband also has dementia.

So they have the health struggles and the financial burden. Which is very very scary btw.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 4:47 pm
Bad things don't happen to rich people disproportionately.

If anything bad things probably happen to POOR people disproportionately. Sufficient money means one is probably receiving better medical care and in general more money means one can afford to seek out the best medical care without financial worries. There are lots of articles on how some people can't afford insulin.

Dental care is expensive and isn't a minor health issue as studies have shown that decay and gum disease is linked to cardiac issues.

Stress is a major cause of some health issues as well.

Money causes stress in marriages and that impacts children - sometimes for the rest of their lives. Most families who can afford cleaning help and qualify day care don't have stress in those areas.

Really I can't think of a single problem that is actually caused by wealth. Sure some wealthy people are miserable but my experience is that their wealth isn't causing their unhappiness.

I think that a belief that rich people "suffer" is a bromide that people tell themselves make themselves less disgruntled by economic inequality. And I certainly don't buy into a belief that if one becomes wealthy, a scale will somehow tip and you will receive bad luck in some other way.

Of course anyone can point to a wealthy person and extrapolate that they are unhappy - or that someone won a lottery or inherited a fortune and their lives became worse. But the reality is for most people, their lives would be immeasurably better if a million dollars (no strings attached) landed in their bank account.
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