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Money DOES help in most situations
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 5:56 pm
It seems many frum people tell themselves that their lives wouldn't be easier and better if they had the money they so desperately need to pay for necessities, as if this were a hard and fast rule from Chazal. But is it really true? It's worth entertaining the notion that maybe, just maybe, telling ourselves "The nizyonim would change if I had money" is taking the easy route to doing not a whole lot to alleviate our financial problems.

Hashem even told Moshe at the Yam Suf, 'There's a time for action,' as it were. So why, when it comes to parnossah, are we telling ourselves "All I can do is daven." Isn't there something else we can do? Homeschool? Move to a cheaper state (or country)? Learn how to start a no-money required online blog, business or amazon drop shipping gig? Instead, we say, "Oh no I couldn't do that because X" and then continue spending money to keep up with the Kohens (let's be honest, private school is a want, not an actual physical necessity). We continue to spend as before, telling ourselves that it doesn't matter, you can't get rich by cutting expenses and justifying ourselves by saying, "But the kids need X, my husband needs Y and I need Z. If Hashem wants us to be rich, he'll make us rich! In the meantime finances are our nisiyon."

Does anyone know of a successful person who was made that way by Hashem, or did they have to put in a lot of work to achieve their success? After all, the Talmud says something to the effect that those who succeed were of course helped by Hashem, but that they had to work hard to get there.

We all know that in some homes, parents instil certain lessons and values into their children which enable them to grow up to become financially successful if not wealthy. And yet in most homes, the opposite values seem to be taught. Today there are so many self-help books available about success, wealth, business and the like. Can we as frum people learn new values and behaviours from these books, so that we break the cycle of poverty, become successful ourselves and help our children to do so as well? Then we won't have to tell ourselves 'The nisyon would change' to feel better about our financial prospects.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:40 pm
Like most, I struggle with finances. But I always say that as long as I have the basics - decent housing, food and clothing - limited money is the BEST nisayon to have. It is better than:

Me or my loved one having Cancer Ch"V
Having a child off the derech.
Being married to an abuser
Living in pain (even if not life-threatening)

Remember our Nisyanos come from Hashem. Nothing is random. Of course,
keep davening and doing hishtadlus but keep money challenges in perspective.
There ARE worse nisyanos.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:43 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Like most, I struggle with finances. But I always say that as long as I have the basics - decent housing, food and clothing - limited money is the BEST nisayon to have. It is better than:

Me or my loved one having Cancer Ch"V
Having a child off the derech.
Being married to an abuser
Living in pain (even if not life-threatening)

Remember our Nisyanos come from Hashem. Nothing is random. Of course,
keep davening and doing hishtadlus but keep money challenges in perspective.
There ARE worse nisyanos.


If you have the basics, and can afford your life, then you are not poor. Middle class, but not poor.
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mommyla




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 9:01 pm
leah233 wrote:
Actually when I heard that song on Fiddler on the Roof I was thinking "I see why Hashem didn't make him rich"

He had no plans of doing anything good with his money, wanted to laze around and give bad advice to the innocent while his wife flaunted their wealth etc.


If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack
To sit in the synagogue and pray,
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall,
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men
Seven hours every day
And that would be the sweetest thing of all

Lofty goals Wink
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 9:08 pm
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
If you have the basics, and can afford your life, then you are not poor. Middle class, but not poor.


I don't own a house or car, never take vacations - even a bungalow, never go to a restaurant, limited new clothing.

But I still feel I have the basics - I am not hungry, I have an apt with running water, electricity, A/C, heat - and my clothing is decent even if I wear clothing for several years.

BH I am healthy, my children are healthy, and we are frum.

I know there are far worse nisyonos.
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teachkids




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 9:26 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:
It seems many frum people tell themselves that their lives wouldn't be easier and better if they had the money they so desperately need to pay for necessities, as if this were a hard and fast rule from Chazal. But is it really true? It's worth entertaining the notion that maybe, just maybe, telling ourselves "The nizyonim would change if I had money" is taking the easy route to doing not a whole lot to alleviate our financial problems.

Hashem even told Moshe at the Yam Suf, 'There's a time for action,' as it were. So why, when it comes to parnossah, are we telling ourselves "All I can do is daven." Isn't there something else we can do? Homeschool? Move to a cheaper state (or country)? Learn how to start a no-money required online blog, business or amazon drop shipping gig? Instead, we say, "Oh no I couldn't do that because X" and then continue spending money to keep up with the Kohens (let's be honest, private school is a want, not an actual physical necessity). We continue to spend as before, telling ourselves that it doesn't matter, you can't get rich by cutting expenses and justifying ourselves by saying, "But the kids need X, my husband needs Y and I need Z. If Hashem wants us to be rich, he'll make us rich! In the meantime finances are our nisiyon."

Does anyone know of a successful person who was made that way by Hashem, or did they have to put in a lot of work to achieve their success? After all, the Talmud says something to the effect that those who succeed were of course helped by Hashem, but that they had to work hard to get there.

We all know that in some homes, parents instil certain lessons and values into their children which enable them to grow up to become financially successful if not wealthy. And yet in most homes, the opposite values seem to be taught. Today there are so many self-help books available about success, wealth, business and the like. Can we as frum people learn new values and behaviours from these books, so that we break the cycle of poverty, become successful ourselves and help our children to do so as well? Then we won't have to tell ourselves 'The nisyon would change' to feel better about our financial prospects.


I agree with most of what you said, except this one point. If you send a frum child to Public school alone, you increase the chance of going otd or worse trouble. If you homeschool alone, (besides having to stay home with the kid) you increase the chance of social and emotional issues. Yes there are cases where for specific kids these are the best option, but not for the majority of kids. Yes, if we all pull our kids out of yeshiva and send them to public school together so there's a good frum chevra that will alleviate a lot of the issue, but good luck making that happen without a few korbonos on the way.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 9:48 pm
mha3484 wrote:
OP I hope hashem sends you the money you need to live your life with menuchas ha nefesh. I also struggle with parnossah. Its super hard.

On a tangent to respond to anyone who things life is always easier when you have more money: This is my personal experience in this world:

I guess I must know the opposite people. I grew up surrounded by and related to lot of wealthy people and honestly, I like my life better even if I struggle to pay my bills. My father struggled to make a parnossah but he was home for dinner and homework each night and that is what I remember as a 35 year old not if we went on vacation or what clothes we had.

As kids, our neighbors and family members who lived the kind of life that allows you to never worry about finances worked 15 hour days and saw their kids on the weekends. I am talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc. My uncle runs a massive company and is very very comfortable but when his kids were small, he traveled two weeks each month. I have an uncle that was a super successful investment banker he maybe was home with his kids one day a week. I have a cousin who is so wealthy his family name is on half of the buildings in my city and it didnt make him not try and kill himself in 8th grade. Hes still bi-polar no matter how much money he has for next 5 generations.

Its really easy to say that money does not solve problems but makes them more managable and its probably true to some degree for the small stuff in life. But it comes to the big stuff, I look at situations that I see in my city where people have experienced horrible tzaras that I hope I never have to experience in my life and the majority of those people are very very well off. Money never make those things better ever ever ever. Im talking death, terminal illness, substance abuse etc. Ill take being broke over this any day.

My husband works 6 days a week and usually comes home when some of the kids are already sleeping. He’s definitely never home to eat dinner with them or do homework. We are behind in our rent payments, we can’t afford groceries, I desperately need dental work but there’s no money for it, kids need therapy we can’t afford and we have enormous debt etc
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amother
Orange


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 11:01 pm
Not sure.

I have anxiety and not having money makes it flare up in the worst of way. Or used to.

But I’ve grown up some. My parents had a lot more money when I was younger and grew tighter in my teen years. Could not afford to help me out like they did with my siblings so I had to stand on my own feet. Struggled for several years including needing fertility help and not going to therapy etc. then finally Bh my husband went to school and we are on much better footing.

That being said, we had wayy better Shalom Bayit back when we were poor- the illusion that we would go on dates or go to therapy lol. At least we saw and spoke to each other then. We get no breaks anywhere, are expected to give the most to every tzedaka function and gift while still paying tremendous debts and just making enough to be comfortably tight Bh. No savings or a house.

My sibling who’s poorer than us by far, has bli ayin hora a huge beautiful healthy family. He’s home every day for supper. She has way more koach than I ever had and keeps a beautiful home while working full time. It’s stressful but they have all the necessities they need. Sometimes they need to use a safety net (they are not on programs long term but get reduced insurance, tuition etc.) no one expects anything from them...

My point is not that money doesn’t help. My point is that we each get the WHOLE package together. That doesn’t mean that every rich person has more tzaros, some rich people are lucky, some poor ppl are.

When I cry to god it’s not just about money- he can give me anything. I want money and koach and kids and happiness and a good marriage.

Money can make some things easier but ultimately we all get a package deal and money is just one part of it.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 11:02 pm
Not sure.

I have anxiety and not having money makes it flare up in the worst of way. Or used to.

But I’ve grown up some. My parents had a lot more money when I was younger and grew tighter in my teen years. Could not afford to help me out like they did with my siblings so I had to stand on my own feet. Struggled for several years including needing fertility help and not going to therapy etc. then finally Bh my husband went to school and we are on much better footing.

That being said, we had wayy better Shalom Bayit back when we were poor- the illusion that we would go on dates or go to therapy lol. At least we saw and spoke to each other then. We get no breaks anywhere, are expected to give the most to every tzedaka function and gift while still paying tremendous debts and just making enough to be comfortably tight Bh. No savings or a house.

My sibling who’s poorer than us by far, has bli ayin hora a huge beautiful healthy family. He’s home every day for supper. She has way more koach than I ever had and keeps a beautiful home while working full time. It’s stressful but they have all the necessities they need. Sometimes they need to use a safety net (they are not on programs long term but get reduced insurance, tuition etc.) no one expects anything from them...

My point is not that money doesn’t help. My point is that we each get the WHOLE package together. That doesn’t mean that every rich person has more tzaros, some rich people are lucky, some poor ppl are.

When I cry to god it’s not just about money- he can give me anything. I want money and koach and kids and happiness and a good marriage.

Money can make some things easier but ultimately we all get a package deal and money is just one part of it. Life is just not fair.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 11:53 pm
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
Absolutely! Speaking as someone who is fairly well off. Articles like that are disingenuous and humble brag-y.

“Whoever said money doesn’t buy happiness never had any.”


Yep, when someone tells me that, I tell them - You know what, let me try that out for myself & I'll let you know if I agree with you.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2019, 11:59 pm
Of course money makes life easier.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:43 am
mha3484 wrote:
OP I hope hashem sends you the money you need to live your life with menuchas ha nefesh. I also struggle with parnossah. Its super hard.

On a tangent to respond to anyone who things life is always easier when you have more money: This is my personal experience in this world:

I guess I must know the opposite people. I grew up surrounded by and related to lot of wealthy people and honestly, I like my life better even if I struggle to pay my bills. [b][b]My father struggled to make a parnossah but he was home for dinner and homework each night and that is what I remember as a 35 year old not if we went on vacation or what clothes we h[/b]ad.[/b]

As kids, our neighbors and family members who lived the kind of life that allows you to never worry about finances worked 15 hour days and saw their kids on the weekends. I am talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc. My uncle runs a massive company and is very very comfortable but when his kids were small, he traveled two weeks each month. I have an uncle that was a super successful investment banker he maybe was home with his kids one day a week. I have a cousin who is so wealthy his family name is on half of the buildings in my city and it didnt make him not try and kill himself in 8th grade. Hes still bi-polar no matter how much money he has for next 5 generations.

Its really easy to say that money does not solve problems but makes them more managable and its probably true to some degree for the small stuff in life. But it comes to the big stuff, I look at situations that I see in my city where people have experienced horrible tzaras that I hope I never have to experience in my life and the majority of those people are very very well off. Money never make those things better ever ever ever. Im talking death, terminal illness, substance abuse etc. Ill take being broke over this any day.


Well, my father struggled too and we grew up with a very limited source of income. He was NEVER home for dinner or homework. Vacation? What’s that. He worked two jobs and the stress ate away at him little by little. Our house was not a happy place by any stretch and He sadly passed away relatively young.

Currently I am in dire financial straits too. Our apt is in foreclosure and my husbands lost his business and all our hard earned savings. Before that we have been quite comfortable, not rich- but comfortable, and the difference of my life is like the dark night to glaring sunshine. None of my problems magically disappeared with this trade off. My SB is suffering. My kids are impacted by it all. .
Before I was able to take my children who have allergies and are on special diet to specialists. Now I can’t even afford basic food. Instead of getting a root canal, I lost my tooth. Who are we kidding? No, money doesn’t buy u happiness but it definitely can make you more comfortable in your misery. I daven daily to Hashem that he restore us to our previous financial status. No riches for me requested, just being able to cover the basic necessities without crying myself to sleep. (Riches wld be nice too, he he)
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:58 am
That sounds super hard. I hope your situation improves quickly. Just a note to those that wrote about shalom bayis, working on being careful with shalom bayis (as hard as it is under difficult financial circumstances) is a segulah for parnassah. (R' Moshe Mandel)
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 1:41 am
amother [ Green ] wrote:
That sounds super hard. I hope your situation improves quickly. Just a note to those that wrote about shalom bayis, working on being careful with shalom bayis (as hard as it is under difficult financial circumstances) is a segulah for parnassah. (R' Moshe Mandel)

I know. And I try. But its so difficult when you find piles of mail with credit card debt (that u knew nothing of) and mounting tuition bills.
So yeah, money? please pass me the bucket.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 2:44 am
leah233 wrote:
Actually when I heard that song on Fiddler on the Roof I was thinking "I see why Hashem didn't make him rich"

He had no plans of doing anything good with his money, wanted to laze around and give bad advice to the innocent while his wife flaunted their wealth etc.


Did you miss the end of song
Spend time with the holy books
And that would be the sweetest thing of all
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 3:04 am
We definitely had this discussion once before here and I'm pretty sure I am going to say what I said. Being financially comfortable isn't a trade deal.
Hashem doesn't say "OK, I'll give you 10 million dollars but now your child will get cancer. Boom!"

Objectively speaking, if 2 people have the same challenge, let's say with a sick child, of COURSE it's easier to handle if you have money.
My friend has the same number of children as I do and we generally have similar, normal kid issues. But...

She has cleaning help 6 times a week. I have to come home and clean my house every day.

She has a brand new car every 3 years so she never has to worry about her car breaking down.
I have to deal with car issues and not being able to drive carpool.

She can go on date nights and mini vacations whenever she wants which helps her shalom bayis. DH and I can barely get out together.

She can treat herself when she's having a difficult day. I can't afford it plus I have way more household responsibilities.

Does having 2 more bathrooms magically make your children act like angels? No. Definitely not. But it can lessen the screaming and yelling in your home.

I know that having more money won't make my life perfect but it's very obvious what improvements it would enable.

Of course if someone ask you "Do you want to be wealthy with an abusive husband or poor with a kind husband?" most normal women will say they want a kind husband. But life isn't a trade off like that. I can also want to be wealthy with a nice husband.
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amother
Black


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 4:21 am
only people who struggle with money are disillusioned to think that if only they had the money, that money would solve their problems. More than money we need sechel how to use it.

I have seen wealthy people who were so stingy, that no, their lives were not better but far worse for them & their families.

I knew one wealthy man, whose house had moldy hanging wallpapers & chairs tied together with shoe laces. His wife didn't have more than a few pennies in her pocket. Even for his burial, money didn't help, as he died in a different country, over a weekend, and they couldn't get the body out. His death came about, from food poisoning of leftover food, he didn't want to ditch, on his travels.

Another person I know, who received a large lump sum from a yerusha but he is so stingy & still living his old life. He lends out big money, for other people, for business deals but their pantry is bare. He doesn't let his wife do the grocery shopping because he needs to control, every penny spent & second guesses, her every nitty gritty purchase.
Another family that got divided over who will get more yerusha than other while patent was still alive.
Money isn't everything
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amother
Orange


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 5:41 am
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
We definitely had this discussion once before here and I'm pretty sure I am going to say what I said. Being financially comfortable isn't a trade deal.
Hashem doesn't say "OK, I'll give you 10 million dollars but now your child will get cancer. Boom!"

Objectively speaking, if 2 people have the same challenge, let's say with a sick child, of COURSE it's easier to handle if you have money.
My friend has the same number of children as I do and we generally have similar, normal kid issues. But...

She has cleaning help 6 times a week. I have to come home and clean my house every day.

She has a brand new car every 3 years so she never has to worry about her car breaking down.
I have to deal with car issues and not being able to drive carpool.

She can go on date nights and mini vacations whenever she wants which helps her shalom bayis. DH and I can barely get out together.

She can treat herself when she's having a difficult day. I can't afford it plus I have way more household responsibilities.

Does having 2 more bathrooms magically make your children act like angels? No. Definitely not. But it can lessen the screaming and yelling in your home.

I know that having more money won't make my life perfect but it's very obvious what improvements it would enable.

Of course if someone ask you "Do you want to be wealthy with an abusive husband or poor with a kind husband?" most normal women will say they want a kind husband. But life isn't a trade off like that. I can also want to be wealthy with a nice husband.


Again, it’s not a trade off but it’s a package deal. So someone might get riches but an abusive husband with it or have no money and no Shalom bayis. Some ppl have better Mazal than others.
I wills say that most ppl I know that are more comfortable are not having date nights and vacations. Their husbands work to the bone.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 5:44 am
Money doesn't buy happiness.It helps with material problems.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 5:51 am
Money isn't everything, but it can make life way easier with the right circumstances.
I've been dirt poor, just managing and now BH moving onto very comfortable.

Many of my issues are helped with money, the stress of not being able to feed my kids to be able to buy groceries ( not luxuries) is world changing.
When I have a stressful day, I work very hard for my money, I can buy pizza if needed- I don't often as I'm not a fast food/take out fan. But I have th eoption, When I was dirt poor, I worked many hours too but had no leeway for a slight luxury, no cleaning help or even a frozen pizza after a 8-10 hour work day what little kids at home.

Paying for therapy for a special needs child that's not provided by any program isle altering.

I took off 2 days and went away with my husband recently, helped our Shalom Bayis. I couldn't do it before as I needed every penny and couldn't spring for the gas or even motel for a night.

Being able to send my kids on paid school trips ( why do schools do that to parents?) and sending snack along-priceless! Replacing torn shoes or pants- no price tag on that!

I have many issues with mental health, special needs and OTD in my family. I'm finally getting needed help for some issues, they don't go away but getting help makes day to day so much more bearable,

Life is not magically better, but so much easier to live.

Being able to donate to family/friends in need is life altering.I didn't have $5 to donate for many years.

I'm not wealthy eat this point, just middle class but lived quite a few years dirt poor.

MONEY DOES HELPS IN MANY SITUATIONS!!!!
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