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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:03 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
It's not a question of fair, certainly we tend to pretend we use logic when we are in reality defending our emotional positions.

When Bill Clinton was president the Democrat/Liberals kept saying (I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact words) "let's evaluate him only if he is capable of doing the job he was elected for, his personal life is not relevant". Of course when a Republican is now in office those who are on that side are saying the same thing, with the snide comment of "you said it first" - which is true.

In my memory, I have been told that Republicans are generally held to a higher standard than Democrats/Liberals. In actual fact, at the time that Bill Clinton was re-elected it was considered astonishing that the voters did not take his personal behavior into account when as they came to the ballot box (anyone remember the term - Teflon president?)

It seems that the world has changed, and now Republicans can ALSO get away with acting badly in their personal life, as we clearly see. It does seem a little funny for those who lean Democrat to point fingers at Trump for lowering the moral standard. Especially for those of us who have studied a bit of history.


I understand your point.
If I may point out- this is where I disagree with the degree of the behaviors, the severity, the frequency, and the impact of the behaviors of Clinton vs. Trump. I think the categories would be Mild vs. Severe and uncontrolled.

Not that I am excusing Clinton in any way. I find all s-xual impropriety abhorrent, and none of it is excusable. But I think the degree of Trump's behaviors has lowered the moral standard severely to a new low that no one could have imagined.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:08 pm
roses wrote:
I understand your point.
If I may point out- this is where I disagree with the degree of the behaviors, the severity, the frequency, and the impact of the behaviors of Clinton vs. Trump. I think the categories would be Mild vs. Severe and uncontrolled.

Not that I am excusing Clinton in any way. I find all s-xual impropriety abhorrent, and none of it is excusable. But I think the degree of Trump's behaviors has lowered the moral standard severely to a new low that no one could have imagined.


I'm not really sure why you find Trump's behavior more abhorent than Clinton's - they were both accused of rape (and Clinton quite credibly in my opinion, if I might add).

I think the term someone used (I don't remember who) was "poiretz geder", about Trump. Honestly I don't see it. There have just been so many lines that were crossed - over and over again - long before Trump even came on the scene - that to say that the last one who crossed another line is really the worst is simply not factual, in my book. And it's not honest.

"Poiretz geder" has been happening in society for quite some time. Over and over again. Just because the next person lowered the bar just a bit more does not make him the instigator, IMHO.
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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:11 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
My feelings and opinions are if someone says they Hate Trump because of
X and but they support Democrat Politicians who are also guilty of X or worse,
that is hypocritical - in my feeling and opinion.

But others are free to disagree and say that is not hypocritical - it's perfectly
legitimate to criticize Trump for X and support Democrat Politicians who do the same.


It's perfectly fine to think someone is being hypocritical. It is not perfectly fine to tell them they are hypocritical. That crosses the line into personal attack and personal criticism. It is perfectly fine to think someone is irrational. It is not okay to tell them they are irrational. That is a personal attack and criticism. You can think whatever you want about people. But it's not okay to cross the line and criticize or label them on a personal level. That is where we all need to demonstrate respect for one another, and accept that we are not all going to think alike, or say the things we would like people to say, or vote the way we would like everyone to vote, and that's okay.
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shyshira




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:15 pm
roses wrote:
It's perfectly fine to think someone is being hypocritical. It is not perfectly fine to tell them they are hypocritical. That crosses the line into personal attack and personal criticism. It is perfectly fine to think someone is irrational. It is not okay to tell them they are irrational. That is a personal attack and criticism. You can think whatever you want about people. But it's not okay to cross the line and criticize or label them on a personal level. That is where we all need to demonstrate respect for one another, and accept that we are not all going to think alike, or say the things we would like people to say, or vote the way we would like everyone to vote, and that's okay.


I think the posts could move away from trying to "prove" things about each other (or anything really) we would get back to debating ideas and opinions.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:18 pm
roses wrote:
Also, "Anyone who doesn't vote the way I do isn't a frum Jew"-no

"Anyone who doesn't agree with me belongs to an Anti Trump Gang"- no


I also want to point out that "anyone who voted for Trump must be a racist" is also a personal attack.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:18 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I'm not really sure why you find Trump's behavior more abhorent than Clinton's - they were both accused of rape (and Clinton quite credibly in my opinion, if I might add).

I think the term someone used (I don't remember who) was "poiretz geder", about Trump. Honestly I don't see it. There have just been so many lines that were crossed - over and over again - long before Trump even came on the scene - that to say that the last one who crossed another line is really the worst is simply not factual, in my book. And it's not honest.

"Poiretz geder" has been happening in society for quite some time. Over and over again. Just because the next person lowered the bar just a bit more does not make him the instigator, IMHO.


Clinton's accuser swore, under oath, that he didn't rape her.

He did make other bad choices, and had a long-term affair, but they were largely consensual.

The funny thing is that after a 6(?) year investigation into Bill Clinton, the best that anyone could come up with was lying about a BJ with a disparity of power, but involving an adult. And Clinton was impeached for it. Moreover, there were Democrats who voted in favor or articles of impeachment, and Republicans who voted against conviction.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:19 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Clinton's accuser swore, under oath, that he didn't rape her.

He did make other bad choices, and had a long-term affair, but they were largely consensual.

The funny thing is that after a 6(?) year investigation into Bill Clinton, the best that anyone could come up with was lying about a BJ with a disparity of power, but involving an adult. And Clinton was impeached for it. Moreover, there were Democrats who voted in favor or articles of impeachment, and Republicans who voted against conviction.


Which accuser are we talking about? That is NOT how I heard the story.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:20 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I also want to point out that "anyone who voted for Trump must be a racist" is also a personal attack.


I agree.

But that's very different from saying that there are a lot of racists who support Trump, and that Trump certainly looks like he's trying to appease them.
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Yael




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 3:21 pm
Guidelines are coming soon. I will post when it’s ready.
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