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Not vaxxing CAN BE a religious issue!
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 10:36 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
I edited your sidebar, it makes it easier to read.

Otherwise - Yes - I agree with you.

Based on the Rabbis letter NJ should modify their religious exemption language to require a Rabbi's reasoning why this person should not vaccinate.


NJ Officials are being bribed by Pharmaceutical Industry to ELIMINATE religious exemption completely - No Rabbi's Letters. And medical exemptions only exist in theory. So No Exemptions for anyone - that's the agenda.

No Unvaxxed Kids = No Vax vs unVax Study.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 11:00 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
NJ Officials are being bribed by Pharmaceutical Industry to ELIMINATE religious exemption completely - No Rabbi's Letters. And medical exemptions only exist in theory. So No Exemptions for anyone - that's the agenda.

No Unvaxxed Kids = No Vax vs unVax Study.


So much for discussing the letter.
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amother




cornflower
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 6:29 am
Our religion is the Torah. This Torah tells us to guard our health. This entails leading a healthy lifestyle, which includes preventive care. God heals, not the doctors. But He has fashioned the world derech hataiva, where the doctors are the messengers. According to our religious halacha, we are required to go according to the prevalent majority opinion of the current medical establishment, which now recommends vaccination. That is the religious law.

Then, we have the issue of people who claim they had various side effects from vaccines. What ur basically saying is you require a medical exemption. Since this injury is not accepted by the medical establishment (and dont scream antisemitism since nonjews have same predicament) you ask for a religious exemption based on the theory of venishmartem...guarding ur health. But, sorry, if the medical establishment doesn't agree, then according to our Jewish religion you claim to be part of, you cannot claim that.

So, back to your comments that anyone can say its your own personal religious belief....well, guess what, your own personal belief makes it a philosophical exemption.

Unfortunately most states don't allow that exemption so people have hijacked the religious exemption for own personal benefit.

By antivax parents refusing to keep children home during an outbreak, u forced the hands of the assembly to abolish religious exemptions which will have lots of repercussions down the line for everyone....

Maybe its time to call a spade, a spade. Stop screaming about not vaxxing being a religious issue, which u know good and we'll, it is not. Be honest and call it a philosophical exemption and start a movement to get a law allowing this. Or work on giving drs more rights in giving medical exemptions, which is what u really want....
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 10:45 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
Our religion is the Torah. This Torah tells us to guard our health. This entails leading a healthy lifestyle, which includes preventive care. God heals, not the doctors. But He has fashioned the world derech hataiva, where the doctors are the messengers. According to our religious halacha, we are required to go according to the prevalent majority opinion of the current medical establishment, which now recommends vaccination. That is the religious law.

Then, we have the issue of people who claim they had various side effects from vaccines. What ur basically saying is you require a medical exemption. Since this injury is not accepted by the medical establishment (and dont scream antisemitism since nonjews have same predicament) you ask for a religious exemption based on the theory of venishmartem...guarding ur health. But, sorry, if the medical establishment doesn't agree, then according to our Jewish religion you claim to be part of, you cannot claim that.

So, back to your comments that anyone can say its your own personal religious belief....well, guess what, your own personal belief makes it a philosophical exemption.

Unfortunately most states don't allow that exemption so people have hijacked the religious exemption for own personal benefit.

By antivax parents refusing to keep children home during an outbreak, u forced the hands of the assembly to abolish religious exemptions which will have lots of repercussions down the line for everyone....

Maybe its time to call a spade, a spade. Stop screaming about not vaxxing being a religious issue, which u know good and we'll, it is not. Be honest and call it a philosophical exemption and start a movement to get a law allowing this. Or work on giving drs more rights in giving medical exemptions, which is what u really want....


It is WRONG to claim that the MAJORITY of doctors support continuing vaccinating children who have had a bad vaccine reaction. That is the opinion of GOVERNMENT (who accept Millions $$$ from Pharmaceutical Industry). But it is NOT the opinion of majority of doctors.

If a child's doctor feels that vaccines are too risky for a child who had a bad vaccine reaction - and the Rabbi FORBIDS further vaccination - than RELIGION
does not allow that child to be vaccinated.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 10:51 am
#BestBubby wrote:
It is WRONG to claim that the MAJORITY of doctors support continuing vaccinating children who have had a bad vaccine reaction. That is the opinion of GOVERNMENT (who accept Millions $$$ from Pharmaceutical Industry). But it is NOT the opinion of majority of doctors.

If a child's doctor feels that vaccines are too risky for a child who had a bad vaccine reaction - and the Rabbi FORBIDS further vaccination - than RELIGION
does not allow that child to be vaccinated.


What she claimed was "prevalent majority opinion of the current medical establishment, which now recommends vaccination."

If you are going to argue with her - refute what she actually said.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:02 am
Many NJ yeshivas expect the students to be vaccinated unless they have medical exemptions so even if REs remain, it's kinda hard to state a religious reason for not vaccinating while sending to a school where everyone vaccinates. It's almost like completely non-observant Jews who demand kosher food in prison but would not keep it after release, nor did they ever keep it.
I would think that these rabbonim would have to write personal letters to the yeshiva that there was an actual medical basis for the p'sak and not simply the personal preference of the parents, and a similar letter could be given to the DOE if necessary.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:35 am
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
What she claimed was "prevalent majority opinion of the current medical establishment, which now recommends vaccination."

If you are going to argue with her - refute what she actually said.


The Topic is RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS. One cannot say that the "prevalent majority opinion" of doctors is to continue vaccinating a child who had a bad vaccine reaction. Rabbis have FORBADE continuing to vaccinate a child who had a bad vaccine reaction. So the Religious Exemption is Legitimate.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:37 am
#BestBubby wrote:
The Topic is RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS. One cannot say that the "prevalent majority opinion" of doctors is to continue vaccinating a child who had a bad vaccine reaction. Rabbis have FORBADE continuing to vaccinate a child who had a bad vaccine reaction. So the Religious Exemption is Legitimate.


"one" didn't say that in "one's" post.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:40 am
southernbubby wrote:
Many NJ yeshivas expect the students to be vaccinated unless they have medical exemptions so even if REs remain, it's kinda hard to state a religious reason for not vaccinating while sending to a school where everyone vaccinates. It's almost like completely non-observant Jews who demand kosher food in prison but would not keep it after release, nor did they ever keep it.
I would think that these rabbonim would have to write personal letters to the yeshiva that there was an actual medical basis for the p'sak and not simply the personal preference of the parents, and a similar letter could be given to the DOE if necessary.


Unlike Public Schools, Private Schools like Yeshivas/BY do not HAVE to accept Religious Exemption. But if a Rov would write a letter that the RE was based on
medical concerns than the Yeshiva/BY would likely accept that child.

But if a parent says I believe Vaccines are too risky for any child the school will not accept that child's RE. Even though some Rabbonim have demanded that
Lakewood yeshivas/by accept antivaxxer kids, the yeshivas/by will not. Most
teachers and parents do not want yeshivas/by to accept unvaxed kids - unless there is a medical reason.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:44 am
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
What she claimed was "prevalent majority opinion of the current medical establishment, which now recommends vaccination."

If you are going to argue with her - refute what she actually said.


OK. Any doctor who is publicly anti-vax is at risk of losing his/her license.
With that kind of persecution/intimidation, the public does not know what
medical doctors REALLY believe. MDs must toe the line.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:51 am
#BestBubby wrote:
OK. Any doctor who is publicly anti-vax is at risk of losing his/her license.
With that kind of persecution/intimidation, the public does not know what
medical doctors REALLY believe. MDs must toe the line.


Medical doctors trade in opinions not beliefs.

Medical doctors lose their licences for not following care standards. Please support your claim regarding risk of losing licence.
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amother




cornflower
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:55 am
#BestBubby wrote:
The Topic is RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS. One cannot say that the "prevalent majority opinion" of doctors is to continue vaccinating a child who had a bad vaccine reaction. Rabbis have FORBADE continuing to vaccinate a child who had a bad vaccine reaction. So the Religious Exemption is Legitimate.


If the Rabbis "forbid" (which none do, they advise, they recommend, they think - none forbid...) continuing vaccination for child who had a bad vaccine reaction, it is a medical reason, thus medical exemption...
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 11:57 am
#BestBubby wrote:
OK. Any doctor who is publicly anti-vax is at risk of losing his/her license.
With that kind of persecution/intimidation, the public does not know what
medical doctors REALLY believe. MDs must toe the line.


But there is no doctor who is anti vax in the way you are Best Bubby. That would be like saying doctors deny penicillin is effective against matched bacteria...
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 12:08 pm
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
If the Rabbis "forbid" (which none do, they advise, they recommend, they think - none forbid...) continuing vaccination for child who had a bad vaccine reaction, it is a medical reason, thus medical exemption...


Government will not give medical exemptions to children who have had a
bad reaction to a vaccine. Child can only get a religious exemption.

But Pharmaceutical Industry is bribing ALL states to take away the Religious
Exemption. And NOT to allow doctors to give medical exemptions - need
approval from government. Doctors are AFRAID to give medical exemptions -
even for kids who had bad vaccine reactions.

Folks, wake up to this Tyranny that jeopardizes the lives of children.
Pharmaceutical Industry BUYS and CONTROLS the Government!
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 12:11 pm
nchr wrote:
But there is no doctor who is anti vax in the way you are Best Bubby. That would be like saying doctors deny penicillin is effective against matched bacteria...


Not true. Is there a world-wide anti-penicillin movement? Is there a penicillin court that paid out 4.2 Billion for Penicillin injuries? Are people FORCED to
take penicillin?

No - so your analogy comparing vaccines to penicillin FAILS.

There are GOOD REASONS why there is a world-wide anti-vaccine movement.
And there are MEDICAL DOCTORS and SCIENTISTS who are "anti-vax" to
various degrees: Some say any vaccine is too risky, others say Some but
NOT ALL vaccines are worth the risk, that the vaccine schedule is too many too soon, etc.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 12:17 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
Medical doctors trade in opinions not beliefs.

Medical doctors lose their licences for not following care standards. Please support your claim regarding risk of losing licence.


You just stated is: Doctors can lose their license for not following care standards.

That means even if the doctor's opinion is that vaccines are dangerous, s/he must
vaccinate or lose his/her license.

There are doctors who DON'T vaccinate their own children, but vaccinate their
patients.

I don't think the average American is aware of this. People think doctors are
telling them the doctor's opinion of what is the best treatment. NOT TRUE.
Doctors are merely following orders - not necessarily advising what their
True Opinion is.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 3:02 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
You just stated is: Doctors can lose their license for not following care standards.

That means even if the doctor's opinion is that vaccines are dangerous, s/he must
vaccinate or lose his/her license.

There are doctors who DON'T vaccinate their own children, but vaccinate their
patients.

I don't think the average American is aware of this. People think doctors are
telling them the doctor's opinion of what is the best treatment. NOT TRUE.
Doctors are merely following orders - not necessarily advising what their
True Opinion is.



What you said was " Any doctor who is publicly anti-vax is at risk of losing his/her license".

What does the phrase "publicly anti-vax" mean to you? What it means to me is making public statements against vaccination. This is completely removed from private practice.
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amother




Denim
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 3:07 pm
nchr wrote:
But there is no doctor who is anti vax in the way you are Best Bubby.


In your little bubble that might be true. But in the real world you are completely mistaken. But keep thinking that, if it helps you sleep at night.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 3:12 pm
amother [ Denim ] wrote:
In your little bubble that might be true. But in the real world you are completely mistaken. But keep thinking that, if it helps you sleep at night.


There is a big group of conspiracy theory doctors?
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amother




cornflower
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 5:33 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Government will not give medical exemptions to children who have had a
bad reaction to a vaccine. Child can only get a religious exemption.



You are actually proving my point here. Its a medical exemption you want. Govt doesn't agree so you decide its your religion not to give shots. Well, no its not your religion. (and that why all those religious schools that are part of thisbreligion you are part of, won't accept it...)

It is still a medical exemption you want but since the medical establishment doesn't agree, it has now become your philosophical opinion, which in a free country you're entitled to. So, logically, you and the rest of the people who believe this, should be advocating for a philosophical exemption. It is not legal in my, but some states allow it.


It would behoove you to fight in the correct venue if you want to get anywhere. Fighting it as a religious exemption, which it never was, will no longer work since the govt figured out by now it was only an excuse
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