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Not vaxxing CAN BE a religious issue!
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 7:40 pm
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
You are actually proving my point here. Its a medical exemption you want. Govt doesn't agree so you decide its your religion not to give shots. Well, no its not your religion. (and that why all those religious schools that are part of thisbreligion you are part of, won't accept it...)

It is still a medical exemption you want but since the medical establishment doesn't agree, it has now become your philosophical opinion, which in a free country you're entitled to. So, logically, you and the rest of the people who believe this, should be advocating for a philosophical exemption. It is not legal in my, but some states allow it.


It would behoove you to fight in the correct venue if you want to get anywhere. Fighting it as a religious exemption, which it never was, will no longer work since the govt figured out by now it was only an excuse


Judaism COMMANDS you "vnishmartem es nafshosechem" so
NOT vaccinating a child who is at high risk of a bad reaction is a
Religious Obligation.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 7:55 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Judaism COMMANDS you "vnishmartem es nafshosechem" so
NOT vaccinating a child who is at high risk of a bad reaction is a
Religious Obligation.


While this is true, there are three problems here:

1) The general deterioration of religious freedom
2) Doctors being prevented from making sound medical decisions
3) The rigidity of vaccine protocol that may need adjustments as more information becomes known.
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amother




Wine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:05 pm
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
Our religion is the Torah. This Torah tells us to guard our health. This entails leading a healthy lifestyle, which includes preventive care. God heals, not the doctors. But He has fashioned the world derech hataiva, where the doctors are the messengers. According to our religious halacha, we are required to go according to the prevalent majority opinion of the current medical establishment, which now recommends vaccination. That is the religious law.

Then, we have the issue of people who claim they had various side effects from vaccines. What ur basically saying is you require a medical exemption. Since this injury is not accepted by the medical establishment (and dont scream antisemitism since nonjews have same predicament) you ask for a religious exemption based on the theory of venishmartem...guarding ur health. But, sorry, if the medical establishment doesn't agree, then according to our Jewish religion you claim to be part of, you cannot claim that.

So, back to your comments that anyone can say its your own personal religious belief....well, guess what, your own personal belief makes it a philosophical exemption.

Unfortunately most states don't allow that exemption so people have hijacked the religious exemption for own personal benefit.

By antivax parents refusing to keep children home during an outbreak, u forced the hands of the assembly to abolish religious exemptions which will have lots of repercussions down the line for everyone....

Maybe its time to call a spade, a spade. Stop screaming about not vaxxing being a religious issue, which u know good and we'll, it is not. Be honest and call it a philosophical exemption and start a movement to get a law allowing this. Or work on giving drs more rights in giving medical exemptions, which is what u really want....

This is almost very true but missing one detail which changes the picture.
According to NY State law, your religious exemption is allowed to be your own personal belief within your religion. This was fought out in supreme court, if I remember, in the early 80s, by a Jewish couple in upstate NY.

This means that the religious exemption did not go by Judaism which says x, or Islam that says y. It didnt need a rabbi, priest, or imam to endorse it. I could dream up that judaism expects me to eat blue cheese twice a month and as long as I have sources to prove it, its valid. Because it goes by personal belief within religion. Not what the majority of Jews or rabbis believe.

So vinishmartem me'od is very valid because it is open to interpretation. The problem was that the NY religious exemptions would be revoked if it had anything to do with medical issues. So that pasuk didnt fly well with the doh.

There are other sources which worked well such as "ani hashem rofecha" and statements from the Rambam. Which are more about healthy living than medical reasons not to vax.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:22 pm
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
Our religion is the Torah. This Torah tells us to guard our health. This entails leading a healthy lifestyle, which includes preventive care. God heals, not the doctors. But He has fashioned the world derech hataiva, where the doctors are the messengers. According to our religious halacha, we are required to go according to the prevalent majority opinion of the current medical establishment, which now recommends vaccination. That is the religious law.

Then, we have the issue of people who claim they had various side effects from vaccines. What ur basically saying is you require a medical exemption. Since this injury is not accepted by the medical establishment (and dont scream antisemitism since nonjews have same predicament) you ask for a religious exemption based on the theory of venishmartem...guarding ur health. But, sorry, if the medical establishment doesn't agree, then according to our Jewish religion you claim to be part of, you cannot claim that.

So, back to your comments that anyone can say its your own personal religious belief....well, guess what, your own personal belief makes it a philosophical exemption.

Unfortunately most states don't allow that exemption so people have hijacked the religious exemption for own personal benefit.

By antivax parents refusing to keep children home during an outbreak, u forced the hands of the assembly to abolish religious exemptions which will have lots of repercussions down the line for everyone....

Maybe its time to call a spade, a spade. Stop screaming about not vaxxing being a religious issue, which u know good and we'll, it is not. Be honest and call it a philosophical exemption and start a movement to get a law allowing this. Or work on giving drs more rights in giving medical exemptions, which is what u really want....

Some food for thought... if most "anti vaxxers" are "ex vaxxers", how does one guard ones health by vaccinating, if they dont know if and when their child (or themselves) will be the one getting harmed by any of the doses. No one is tested before receiving vaccines for their risk factors. It's one size fits all.

Additionally, if someone reacts to even on food, allergists test them for allergy to many many more foods. If a child reacts to one vaccine it is assumed it is ONLY that vaccine and the rest are safe. Why is that so?
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:32 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Some food for thought... if most "anti vaxxers" are "ex vaxxers", how does one guard ones health by vaccinating, if they dont know if and when their child (or themselves) will be the one getting harmed by any of the doses. No one is tested before receiving vaccines for their risk factors. It's one size fits all.

Additionally, if someone reacts to even on food, allergists test them for allergy to many many more foods. If a child reacts to one vaccine it is assumed it is ONLY that vaccine and the rest are safe. Why is that so?


how do you define 'anti vaxxer'?

I consider it to people who are against vaccinations, conceptually.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:35 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Some food for thought... if most "anti vaxxers" are "ex vaxxers", how does one guard ones health by vaccinating, if they dont know if and when their child (or themselves) will be the one getting harmed by any of the doses. No one is tested before receiving vaccines for their risk factors. It's one size fits all.

Additionally, if someone reacts to even on food, allergists test them for allergy to many many more foods. If a child reacts to one vaccine it is assumed it is ONLY that vaccine and the rest are safe. Why is that so?


If someone had a bad vaccine reaction, they should probably avoid all vaccines.

Some doctors will dismiss the reaction as a "co-incidence" and insist on giving more vaccines.

I don't know if t here are any tests to screen for which people are likely to be vaccine-injured. I know there is a genetic condition - mitochondrial disorder - which makes one vulnerable.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:38 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
how do you define 'anti vaxxer'?

I consider it to people who are against vaccinations, conceptually.

Or against certain aspects of vaccinations... what if I thought MMR and dtap are important but flu, chicken pox and HepB are unnecessary what does that make me?

What if I oppose the current CDC schedule in and prefer to delay but cant because the daycare/preschool wont take my child so I opt to give none and claim religious exemption? What does that make me?

What if I used to give vaccines, but then someone had an adverse reaction and no one can guarantee that child or any of my other children will be safe, what does that make me?

Anti vaxxer is an awful and meaningless term and a huge misnomer in my book...
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:40 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Or against certain aspects of vaccinations... what if I thought MMR and dtap are important but flu, chicken pox and HepB are unnecessary what does that make me?

What if I oppose the current CDC schedule in and prefer to delay but cant because the daycare/preschool wont take my child so I opt to give none and claim religious exemption? What does that make me?

What if I used to give vaccines, but then someone had an adverse reaction and no one can guarantee that child or any of my other children will be safe, what does that make me?

Anti vaxxer is an awful and meaningless term and a huge misnomer in my book...


you used "anti vaxxer" in your post. so define it in your terms.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:41 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
If someone had a bad vaccine reaction, they should probably avoid all vaccines.

Some doctors will dismiss the reaction as a "co-incidence" and insist on giving more vaccines.

I don't know if t here are any tests to screen for which people are likely to be vaccine-injured. I know there is a genetic condition - mitochondrial disorder - which makes one vulnerable.


But Dr. BestBubby knows better?
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amother




Denim
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:47 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
But Dr. BestBubby knows better?


Maybe not. But you are definitely an ignorant rabble-rouser who is taking pleasure in nit picking people's posts and asking annoying rhetorical questions. Instead, how about you go read some science? And speak to people out of your immediate circle?
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:47 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
you used "anti vaxxer" in your post. so define it in your terms.

It was in quotes because I dont believe in the term but I would say it was referring to anyone who would be labeled as such due to a belief in any alternative schedule other than strict CDC schedule
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:52 pm
amother [ Denim ] wrote:
Maybe not. But you are definitely an ignorant rabble-rouser who is taking pleasure in nit picking people's posts and asking annoying rhetorical questions. Instead, how about you go read some science? And speak to people out of your immediate circle?


This thread wasn't about science. It was about a letter, in support of not removing the religious exemption in NJ.

I'm in support of the religious exemption in New Jersey. I'm in support of the religious exemption in New York too - I hope it returns.

I actually think the whole vaccination program needs to change.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:57 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Or against certain aspects of vaccinations... what if I thought MMR and dtap are important but flu, chicken pox and HepB are unnecessary what does that make me?

What if I oppose the current CDC schedule in and prefer to delay but cant because the daycare/preschool wont take my child so I opt to give none and claim religious exemption? What does that make me?

What if I used to give vaccines, but then someone had an adverse reaction and no one can guarantee that child or any of my other children will be safe, what does that make me?

Anti vaxxer is an awful and meaningless term and a huge misnomer in my book...


Until the measles outbreak, I had not heard the term "anti-vaxer". We didn't define ourselves by our level of vaccination coverage. I knew that some people didn't vaccinate but I didn't care if they didn't or why they didn't. Nobody was getting sick and the few that I knew had no use for modern medicine and although I viewed alternative medicine as a waste of money, they were no threat to anyone but themselves.
They managed, mainly through social media, to alienate the public. They maybe should have been called "anti-public health" since that was what came across the loudest. The shame is that many of the concerns are valid but nobody wants to be part of an annoying group.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:58 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
It was in quotes because I dont believe in the term but I would say it was referring to anyone who would be labeled as such due to a belief in any alternative schedule other than strict CDC schedule


Alright. I thought that would help me follow your food for thought post - but it didn't help me.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 8:59 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
But Dr. BestBubby knows better?


Other Medical Doctors and Scientists know better.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 9:15 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
Alright. I thought that would help me follow your food for thought post - but it didn't help me.

Lol. 5 people liked it so I assume others were able to follow it Wink!
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 9:16 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Lol. 5 people liked it so I assume others were able to follow it Wink


Awesome.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 9:24 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
But Dr. BestBubby knows better?


The CDC and several doctors told us to avoid all vaccines for the child who had the bad reaction so I would question a doctor who advised doing it anyway.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 9:28 pm
southernbubby wrote:
The CDC and several doctors told us to avoid all vaccines for the child who had the bad reaction so I would question a doctor who advised doing it anyway.

The problem is not the doctor, it'st he DOH. My friend's pediatrician told her "I'm not vaccinating your son anymore. If you want to continue vaccinating, you need to go to a different doctor." But he also couldn't give her a medical exemption because the kid's condition didn't qualify according to ACIP guidelines. This doctor is not anti-vax, but he isn't so pro-vax as to be blind to the needs of an individual patient.
And there are plenty doctors who deny vaccine injury when it's staring them in the face. They just repeat "vaccines are safe and effective" and don't even consider that maybe possibly the kid they're looking at is the exception.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 09 2019, 10:00 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
The problem is not the doctor, it'st he DOH. My friend's pediatrician told her "I'm not vaccinating your son anymore. If you want to continue vaccinating, you need to go to a different doctor." But he also couldn't give her a medical exemption because the kid's condition didn't qualify according to ACIP guidelines. This doctor is not anti-vax, but he isn't so pro-vax as to be blind to the needs of an individual patient.
And there are plenty doctors who deny vaccine injury when it's staring them in the face. They just repeat "vaccines are safe and effective" and don't even consider that maybe possibly the kid they're looking at is the exception.


This is the problem when issues become polarized.
Our son's vaccine reaction happened approximately 25 years ago before the vaccine issue took over social media. It was no big deal except that we were worried about lack of vaccine protection but the doctor said to rely on herd immunity.
The school and eventually the overnight camp was fine with his ME and nobody ever challenged it, even when he left the country.
Now the Hatfields and the Mccoys have become so idealized that reactions are labeled coincidence, even though they wouldn't say that about other drug reactions, but OTOH, vaccines are being blamed for literally everything by the other side. Real progress can't happen like that.
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