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Not vaxxing CAN BE a religious issue!
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 11:52 pm
Sorry to say you are the one believing in fake news. But it's a free country, so believe in all the conspiracy theories you want.
But other than some weird obscure sites that do not have any mainstream experts (and bizarre oldie YouTube videos--seriously if that's your proof how do you expect anyone to take you seriously) there is absolutely no proof.
None.
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tilot37354




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 12:36 am
Can we not get into a vaccine fight on this thread? If there's anything that we can say pretty definitively, it's that nobody is going to change their minds about vaccines because of anything posted here, and anybody's beliefs are pretty set in stone, so for the sake of peace and avoiding purposeless futile discussion let's agree to disagree.

Religious freedom is a vaccine neutral subject. Whether you're pro or anti vaccines, religious freedom is a universal issue. Can you imagine if everyone that didn't do kapparos with chickens would support outlawing it because it's bad optics for Orthodox Jews and you gain nothing from it?


I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it, because cherishing freedom of speech and freedom of religion is something which we hopefully all agree upon. Just because you happen to not gain from one particular usage of the freedom doesn't mean that it should be banned. This is why Jews should be big supporters of civil rights and fighting racism... When there's discrimination, don't think that you'll be safe because it's not targeted against you yet.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 12:42 am
tilot37354 wrote:
Can we not get into a vaccine fight on this thread? If there's anything that we can say pretty definitively, it's that nobody is going to change their minds about vaccines because of anything posted here, and anybody's beliefs are pretty set in stone, so for the sake of peace and avoiding purposeless futile discussion let's agree to disagree.

Religious freedom is a vaccine neutral subject. Whether you're pro or anti vaccines, religious freedom is a universal issue. Can you imagine if everyone that didn't do kapparos with chickens would support outlawing it because it's bad optics for Orthodox Jews and you gain nothing from it?


I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it, because cherishing freedom of speech and freedom of religion is something which we hopefully all agree upon. Just because you happen to not gain from one particular usage of the freedom doesn't mean that it should be banned. This is why Jews should be big supporters of civil rights and fighting racism... When there's discrimination, don't think that you'll be safe because it's not targeted against you yet.


Good point. Those who cheer government mandating vaccines won't be so
happy when government bans bris milah, schechitah and yeshiva education.
There have already been attempts - and Government will keep pushing.
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 12:46 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Vaccines kill and permanently injure, too. Government Vaccine Court admits this.

Nobody died in US from measles.

Cars kill a million times more children than measles - should we abolish cars?

If I say we should abolish cars, will you agree to stop spreading measles?
EDIT: Stop hugging me, it's unsanitary, you [insult removed]
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 12:54 am
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
If I say we should abolish cars, will you agree to stop spreading measles?


Ha ha. Nobody is abolishing cars - but government is abolishing liberty - every year taking away more.

Also, how do you know it is not the vaxxed who are spreading measles?
Vaccines fail. Vaccines wear off after several years.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:00 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Ha ha. Nobody is abolishing cars - but government is abolishing liberty - every year taking away more.

Also, how do you know it is not the vaxxed who are spreading measles?
Vaccines fail. Vaccines wear off after several years.

Can we keep this thread on track?

Discuss the topic of choosing to not vaccinate can be based on religion.
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amother




Cyan
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:07 am
Lawngreen, of course you can't find anything credible about the dangers of vaccines because all reputable antivax sites are censored by Google!! Try searching for 'harmful side effects of vaccines' in a different search engine like duck, duck go and be surprised!
10 years ago it was easy to see the good, bad, and ugly about vaccines all laid out on Google. Now Google censors anything that's not part of their liberal agenda.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:09 am
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
Anti-vaxx Jews contribute to anti-Semitism.


Meat -eating Jews and those who shlug kapparos contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who do metzitza b'peh contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who wear animal fur hats, aka shtreimels contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews fighting to keep their beards in the fire dept contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who build big houses, who have big families, who daven with minyan in public, who wear payos and kippa on the street, who act any different than Mr. White Guy, based on their religious beliefs, are blamed for anti-semitism.

What else is new?



The sad part is that those of our own actually believe any of this rhetoric.
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amother




Teal
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:17 am
#BestBubby wrote:
What's more deadly: Cars or Measles?

Or do your children ride in cars? ride a bide? go swimming?

Maybe that should be outlawed as those activities are far more deadly than
measles.


Of course we legislate vehicles to make them safe. Parents must buckle in their children into approved car seats, boosters or seat belts. Everyone must wear a seat belt, for that matter. Vehicles undergo extensive design testing to ensure safety, and are being improved constantly. The new requirement for cars to have back-up cameras is not for ease of parking, but to prevent deaths of children who may ch"vsh not be seen otherwise. We have traffic lights, speed limits, etc. etc.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:17 am
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
Lawngreen, of course you can't find anything credible about the dangers of vaccines because all reputable antivax sites are censored by Google!! Try searching for 'harmful side effects of vaccines' in a different search engine like duck, duck go and be surprised!
10 years ago it was easy to see the good, bad, and ugly about vaccines all laid out on Google. Now Google censors anything that's not part of their liberal agenda.

I don't get my information from google or from any internet search engine. That's like using wikipedia as a serious source. Lol.
Have you ever taken a statistics course or worked on a college thesis? Because that is not how serious scientific research is done, I assure you.

If there was a reputable study done it would absolutely be published in 1 of the scholarly science journals and that would assuredly hit the mainstream media.
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amother




Teal
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:18 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Can we keep this thread on track?

Discuss the topic of choosing to not vaccinate can be based on religion.


What does it have to do with being frum??
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:22 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Meat -eating Jews and those who shlug kapparos contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who do metzitza b'peh contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who wear animal fur hats, aka shtreimels contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews fighting to keep their beards in the fire dept contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who build big houses, who have big families, who daven with minyan in public, who wear payos and kippa on the street, who act any different than Mr. White Guy, based on their religious beliefs, are blamed for anti-semitism.

What else is new?



The sad part is that those of our own actually believe any of this rhetoric.


And the vast majority of anti-vaxers are non-jews.

Those who want to hate jews will hate jews.
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:23 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Meat -eating Jews and those who shlug kapparos contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who do metzitza b'peh contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who wear animal fur hats, aka shtreimels contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews fighting to keep their beards in the fire dept contribute to anti-semitism.

Jews who build big houses, who have big families, who daven with minyan in public, who wear payos and kippa on the street, who act any different than Mr. White Guy, based on their religious beliefs, are blamed for anti-semitism.

What else is new?



The sad part is that those of our own actually believe any of this rhetoric.

The difference is that the non-Jews who are anti-Semitic due to antivaxxers have a much larger grain of truth in their lies.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:26 am
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
The difference is that the non-Jews who are anti-Semitic due to antivaxxers have a much larger grain of truth in their lies.


No they don't. Majority of anti-vaxxers are college educated upper middle class
white parents - the kind who eat only organic. There are doctors and former pharmaceutical employees who don't vax (shhhhh)
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amother




Floralwhite
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:29 am
amother [ Teal ] wrote:
What does it have to do with being frum??


I legitimately have this same question. Regardless of my personal beliefs, I understand potential medical contraindications. I've never understood what a "religious" exemption would be for?
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:30 am
You keep making these statements with not 1 iota of proof to back them up. Other than that bizarre YouTube video.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:35 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
I legitimately have this same question. Regardless of my personal beliefs, I understand potential medical contraindications. I've never understood what a "religious" exemption would be for?


There is a mitzvah of "ushmartem es nafshechem me'od".

If your child had a bad vaccine reaction you may feel it is dangerous to give your child another vaccine. Or to give your other children vaccines.

This is part of guarding one's health.

Medicine cannot be "one size fits all" like the government is coercing.
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amother




Teal
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:45 am
#BestBubby wrote:
There is a mitzvah of "ushmartem es nafshechem me'od".

If your child had a bad vaccine reaction you may feel it is dangerous to give your child another vaccine. Or to give your other children vaccines.

This is part of guarding one's health.

Medicine cannot be "one size fits all" like the government is coercing.


The term religious exemption implies that there's something in your religion that specifically precludes this. Like certain sects (of non-Jews) who do not believe in going to doctors, period.

I don't think anyone is saying that they want to do something that's bad for their health, that's the entire point of vaccines. Calling it a religious matter seems rather weak.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:59 am
amother [ Teal ] wrote:
The term religious exemption implies that there's something in your religion that specifically precludes this. Like certain sects (of non-Jews) who do not believe in going to doctors, period.

I don't think anyone is saying that they want to do something that's bad for their health, that's the entire point of vaccines. Calling it a religious matter seems rather weak.


The religious exemption law does not say that. An INDIVIDUAL is allowed to have any religious belief they want.

7 BMG Rosh Yeshivas wrote a letter to NJ Government opposing bill to remove religious exemptions saying that many frum ask their rabbi for guidance in
medical decisions. And Rabbis - and DOCTORS - have said if your child had a
bad reaction to vaccines, the child and his/her siblings should not be vaccinated - too risky.

So it's both a religious decision and medical decision. But government outlaws
doctors from giving medical exemptions if a child had a bad vaccine reaction.

But it's still against Halachah to take risks - and Rabbis have advised parents NOT to give more vaccines and not to vaccinate the siblings.

Not that the law requires one to have a clergyman's approval.
A parent's religious belief is whatever the parent believes.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 08 2019, 2:04 am
A handful of BMG rabbis is not the authoritative opinion on whether this actually the Torah viewpoint. There is no psak from a universally accepted gadol hador.
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