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Trump's antisemitic remarks in Hollywood, Florida
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 8:36 am
simcha2 wrote:
This whole thread reminds me if this passuk from pirkei avot (2:3 if you're interested)

הֱווּ זְהִירִין בָּרָשׁוּת, שֶׁאֵין מְקָרְבִין לוֹ לָאָדָם אֶלָּא לְצֹרֶךְ עַצְמָן. נִרְאִין כְּאוֹהֲבִין בִּשְׁעַת הֲנָאָתָן, וְאֵין עוֹמְדִין לוֹ לָאָדָם בִּשְׁעַת דָּחְקוֹ:

Be careful [in your dealings] with the ruling authorities for they do not befriend a person except for their own needs; they seem like friends when it is to their own interest, but they do not stand by a man in the hour of his distress.

(Translation from sefaria)


Not to mention numerous pesukim from Tehillim. (Al tivtechu bendivim, et al.) As I've been saying.
Which doesn't negate reasonable experessions of hakaras hatov when and where warranted.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 9:22 am
Cheiny wrote:
Riiiiight. Makes sense. All I can say is, may every gentile be as anti Semitic as he is. And it's no mitzvah for any jew to be so wholly ungrateful and even dishonest about such an oheiv yisroel.


"Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day."

Yup, no buy-in of stereotypes here.

As I wrote earlier, I don't think Trump hates Jews, but he does seem to accept stereotypes. (Which is a form of anti semitism, though maybe philo-semitism, as discussed above, is a better term. Or maybe simply, bigotry).

Feel free to disagree. But the argument "irrational hatred" doesn't make your point.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 9:44 am
The latest term in academia is "positive stereotype", although it's recognised as not being positive to the person it describes. Kind of a left-handed compliment. (No offense meant to left handed people!)

It's problematic because it assumes that a huge group of people are all exactly alike, and denies individual strengths and weaknesses. We just become a huge, amorphous blob.

Not all tall Black guys like basketball.
Not all Asian kids are math geniuses.
Not all Jews have money. (I wish I did, though!)

There is nothing inherently wrong with not liking basketball, being a math genius, or having money. These things can apply to anyone, in any group, in any age, race, or gender.

It's when we lose sight of each person as precious and unique, that we lose sight of humanity in general.
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nomismommy




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 9:51 am
simcha2 wrote:
"Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day."

Yup, no buy-in of stereotypes here.

As I wrote earlier, I don't think Trump hates Jews, but he does seem to accept stereotypes. (Which is a form of anti semitism, though maybe philo-semitism, as discussed above, is a better term. Or maybe simply, bigotry).

Feel free to disagree. But the argument "irrational hatred" doesn't make your point.


I agree. And I think frum judaism does the same to nonjews. " Only non jews wear this, only non jews say that."
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WhatFor




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 9:56 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
The latest term in academia is "positive stereotype", although it's recognised as not being positive to the person it describes. Kind of a left-handed compliment. (No offense meant to left handed people!)

It's problematic because it assumes that a huge group of people are all exactly alike, and denies individual strengths and weaknesses. We just become a huge, amorphous blob.

Not all tall Black guys like basketball.
Not all Asian kids are math geniuses.
Not all Jews have money. (I wish I did, though!)

There is nothing inherently wrong with not liking basketball, being a math genius, or having money. These things can apply to anyone, in any group, in any age, race, or gender.

It's when we lose sight of each person as precious and unique, that we lose sight of humanity in general.


I agree, but also for me it's concerning that it also tends to "other" another group of people. I do think that Trump sees himself as different to Jewish people (and other races).

Also, while we're on this topic, time to repost this Onion article:

https://local.theonion.com/loc.....64292

Editing to post article:

Quote:
Local Jew Feels Left Out Of Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy

SOUTHFIELD, MI—It is an hour past sunset on a brisk Thursday night, and, like their brethren around the globe, the Jews of this affluent Detroit suburb are gathered in synagogues, busily hatching plots for world domination through financial chicanery and media influence. But for Seth Nussbaum, it will be just another lonely evening.

"For some reason, they've decided to leave me out of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy," said Nussbaum, a 34-year-old computer programmer. "And I can't say it doesn't hurt."

While his fellow Jews are controlling the flow of billions of dollars of international currency and brokering multi million-dollar entertainment deals, on this quiet night Nussbaum is making himself a frozen pizza and watching ER, far removed from any money beyond the $28,000 annual salary he receives from his job at Cyntech Industries.

"Who's to say I wouldn't enjoy hoarding a little gold every now and then?" he said, his voice tinged with bitterness. "Believe me, I'd love to be able to sneak around behind the scenes like the Elders of Zion, pulling the strings and holding the real power in society. But I guess when it comes to working the Jerusalem-New York-L.A. triangle, I just wasn't one of the chosen people."

Unlike millions of other Jews around the world, Nussbaum holds no sway over the media, has no powerful friends within the Wall Street banking community or the Trilateral Commission, and has never run a major Hollywood studio.

In fact, Nussbaum doesn't even own so much as his own production company. "Spielberg, Geffen, Ovitz, Eisner, Katzenberg—those are the Jews who control Hollywood," Nussbaum said. "And there's countless other Jews calling the shots at every level of the entertainment industry, from agents to producers to directors. But me? I probably couldn't even get the studio backing for a $15 to $20 million romantic comedy with a mid-level star like Matthew Broderick."

And despite being a regular subscriber to The New York Times for seven years, Nussbaum has no powerful connections among the Jews who own that and every other newspaper in the United States.

"As a left-leaning Jew, I should enjoy vast influence over the press. I should be able use the papers and television stations I own to forward my biased, liberal Jewish agenda and get Israel-supporting Democratic candidates elected to Congress," said Nussbaum, sitting on the old futon he uses as a couch. "But somehow, that's just not the case."

Spurned by his own kind, Nussbaum has not even been able to gain admittance into a secondary world-domination conspiracy like the Masons. "They turned down my application," he said, sighing deeply, "when they found out I was Jewish. I guess for now I'll just have to resign myself to being Seth Nussbaum, computer programmer and powerless Jew."
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wiki




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 10:04 am
Let me put it another way: I think Trump legitimately likes Jews and wants to do good things for them. He also is bigoted and accepts a bunch of stereotypes about Jews that are commonly seen as anti-Semitic--although Trump interprets them as complementary stereotypes.

The issue is that Trump is the President and his views are influential. When he peddles in these stereotypes, he is normalizing tropes that are most commonly held by anti-Semites. Amplifying and normalizing these ideas is not something any of us should welcome.

(Whether these unwelcome gestures are outweighed by Trump's other pro-Jewish stances is up to your own cheshbonos and not the topic here.)
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 10:14 am
WhatFor wrote:
I agree, but also for me it's concerning that it also tends to "other" another group of people. I do think that Trump sees himself as different to Jewish people (and other races).


I agree about the "othering" in general. It's as off putting as hearing someone say "Those people." When you hear it said in a certain way, you know that they are not including themselves in the group they are speaking about.

In this case though, I believe that Trump sees himself as different, and EVERYONE else on the planet is "other". That's what makes him come across as narcissistic, and tone deaf.

As great-grandma used to say, "Well bless his heart." Wink
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 10:52 am
wiki wrote:
Let me put it another way: I think Trump legitimately likes Jews and wants to do good things for them. He also is bigoted and accepts a bunch of stereotypes about Jews Banging head that are commonly seen as anti-Semitic--although Trump interprets them as complementary stereotypes.

The issue is that Trump is the President and his views are influential. When he peddles in these stereotypes, he is normalizing tropes that are most commonly held by anti-Semites. Amplifying and normalizing these ideas is not something any of us should welcome.

(Whether these unwelcome gestures are outweighed by Trump's other pro-Jewish stances is up to your own cheshbonos and not the topic here.)

So first the media claims that he dislikes Jews, and that's bad b/c it's Antisemitic.

But then evidence is presented clearly showing that Trump looks very favorably upon Jews... and that's *also* bad b/c it's Antisemitic.

Banging head

I think the thread title should be changed to "Trump's pro-Semitic and pro-Israel remarks in Hollywood, Florida"
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wiki




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 11:05 am
DrMom, exactly right. He has positive feelings for Jews...because he thinks it is awesome that Jews love money, all want to get rich, are not politically loyal in the same way as other Americans, and love to bribe their politicians.

I appreciate his support; I really do.

I also think it is potentially harmful for him to like Jews in these terms, when some of his supporters will reach different conclusions from his lines of rhetoric.

(And I didn't weigh in here on whether, on the balance, his harm for Jews is outweighed by his help for Jews. I think that both conclusions may be reached legitimately.)
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Learning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 11:17 am
Trump grew up dealing with Jews and he knows and likes Jews. Every society has some quirks. Trump knows our good and bad stuff and he has warm feelings towards us. Trump is very good to us and idk why anyone wants to complain and ruin it.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 11:18 am
wiki wrote:
DrMom, exactly right. He has positive feelings for Jews...because he thinks it is awesome that Jews love money, all want to get rich, are not politically loyal in the same way as other Americans, and love to bribe their politicians.

When did he say this?
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Jeanette




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 11:25 am
I think it's illuminating to look at the terminology that Trump and his supporters use for Jews they don't like. Like Shifty Schiff, or <expletive>.

Yesterday a congressman repeatedly referred to Dem lawyer Barry Berke as a "New York lawyer." What did he mean by that? 🤔

I mean, it seems that some people are comfortable with anti Semitic tropes as long as they're directed against Jews they don't like.


Last edited by Jeanette on Tue, Dec 10 2019, 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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wiki




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 11:26 am
In response to DrMom:
On "not politically loyal in the same way as other Americans":
Trump said on August 21st that he expects Jewish voters to be politically loyal to Israel. Other times, he has said to rooms of American Jews that Netanyahu is "your prime minister."

On "love to bribe their politicians":
On December 3rd, 2015, he told the Republican Jewish Coalition, “You’re not going to support me because I don’t want your money. That’s okay, you want to control your own politician.”
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princessleah




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 11:42 am
wiki wrote:
Let me put it another way: I think Trump legitimately likes Jews and wants to do good things for them. He also is bigoted and accepts a bunch of stereotypes about Jews that are commonly seen as anti-Semitic--although Trump interprets them as complementary stereotypes.

The issue is that Trump is the President and his views are influential. When he peddles in these stereotypes, he is normalizing tropes that are most commonly held by anti-Semites. Amplifying and normalizing these ideas is not something any of us should welcome.

(Whether these unwelcome gestures are outweighed by Trump's other pro-Jewish stances is up to your own cheshbonos and not the topic here.)


Exactly this. You can make racist remarks without being "a racist." Plenty of men make s3xist remarks all the time without realizing, people that consider themselves feminists.

What is disturbing above and beyond his trafficking in anti-semitic tropes is that he demonstrates no openness to learning, correcting, amending or apologizing when he hurts people. No, he doubles down. Even his supporters!

And look at the "trickle-down effect" it is having-- have you seen the phrase #JewCoup lately?
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 12:02 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I think it's illuminating to look at the terminology that Trump and his supporters use for Jews they don't like. Like Shifty Schiff, or <expletive>.

Yesterday a congressman repeatedly referred to Dem lawyer Barry Berke as a "New York lawyer." What did he mean by that? 🤔

I mean, it seems that some people are comfortable with anti Semitic tropes as long as they're directed against Jews they don't like.

I don't dislike Schiff because he is Jewish (I didn't even know he was Jewish until now), I dislike him because he is dishonest.

I think "Shifty" is a fair adjective to use to describe him.

Am I now an Anti-Semite?

I think Ilan Omar is a pretty terrible person. Am I now an Islamophobe? Or a misogynist?

Are all criticisms of public figures = comments on their race/ethnicity/gender/religion?
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wiki




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 12:08 pm
DrMom wrote:
I don't dislike Schiff because he is Jewish (I didn't even know he was Jewish until now), I dislike him because he is dishonest.

I think "Shifty" is a fair adjective to use to describe him.

Am I now an Anti-Semite?

I think Ilan Omar is a pretty terrible person. Am I now an Islamophobe? Or a misogynist?

Are all criticisms of public figures = comments on their race/ethnicity/gender/religion?


This goes back to how offensive stereotypes depend on context, how it's not offensive to call your toddler a monkey but it would be offensive if you said the same thing about your African-American neighbor's kids.

Trump's comments are not deeply offensive to me because it is clear that in spite of the stereotypes (or because of them?), he personally likes Jews. (Just like you might love your toddler who is a monkey.)

I think it is especially incumbent upon presidents to avoid using stereotyping language about groups, especially stereotypes that are often taken to be offensive and that are used to fuel hatred. Especially when that hatred is on the rise worldwide.

Trump's tropes are wrong. Even if his sentiment to Jews is appreciated.

Edited to add: Hating Ilhan Omar does not relate to a specific islamophobic trope. For the record, I don't think Trump's attacks on Adam Schiff are anti-Semitic because they don't specifically relate to persistent anti-Jewish stereotypes.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 12:16 pm
wiki wrote:
In response to DrMom:
On "not politically loyal in the same way as other Americans":
Trump said on August 21st that he expects Jewish voters to be politically loyal to Israel. Other times, he has said to rooms of American Jews that Netanyahu is "your prime minister."

On "love to bribe their politicians":
On December 3rd, 2015, he told the Republican Jewish Coalition, “You’re not going to support me because I don’t want your money. That’s okay, you want to control your own politician.”


I would love it if more Jews cared about Israel.

As for the second point: DJT has mentioned throughout his 2016 campaign that he is not beholden to special interest groups b/c he is rich and thus is not swayed by their money. He made these remarks repeatedly to all sorts of general audiences at rallies, in speeches. So why is it a big deal if he says it to Jewish Republicans? You are creating controversy where there is none.
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Jeanette




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 12:32 pm
I think many of Trump's supporters may not have gotten the message that we hate particular politicians because of their views or behavior and not their religion or ethnicity. Even if you want to excuse it in Trump as a lovable joke, it's being picked up and amplified by his supporters in truly hateful and alarming ways.

And maybe you think you're safe just by insisting that you're one of the "good Jews," but experience has shown us that when this kind of hatred is unleashed, it sweeps up all of us, good Jews and bad Jews alike (leaving aside the question of who gets to decide which Jews are good or bad).
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 12:47 pm
I think many anti-Trump people view everything he does as racist and horrible and therefore Jewish Trump supporters must be bamboozled. There's no room for these supporters to actually think for themselves and come to a different conclusion.

Please respect the fact that we have minds of our own. Since we do not view everything through the prism of race and ethnicity, we don't have to take offense to everything said nor do we have to agree with the premise that we only are tolerated because "we think we're safe because we're the 'Good Jews.' "

In this particular instance there was nothing antisemitic with his statements. His audience laughed - not because they needed to in order to maintain their image as "good Jews" - but because they knew he was right from a business perspective. He clearly stated that he knows many of the audience personally from business dealings. Isn't it patronizing to insist you know better than they whether they should have been outraged or offended?

Why doesn't their non-offense - and applause - count?

(and this is exactly why I think it's dangerous to shut down anything - especially language - just because someone somewhere is offended. What about all the others who are not? Why don't they get to have a say?)
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Dec 10 2019, 12:50 pm
I'm trying to get the whole story, but according to one source, the remarks were part of an inside joke that most people at the event knew about -- something to do with someone trying to sell overpriced Jerusalem stone for the embassy and getting rebuffed. I'm not necessarily claiming this is true; just that there seems to be more to the story.
______________________

But, honestly, it completely flummoxes me that Jews are wasting energy deconstructing this when the situation in the U.K. is so dire and when assaults against Jews are up in the U.S.

Trump has nothing to do with the Labour Party enlisting Hamas's support to mount online campaigns against prominent Jews who've criticized Corbyn. Nor are those who attack Jews in Brooklyn likely to be influenced by whatever Trump says or believes in his heart of hearts.

We shouldn't forget that "Eisav soneh Yaakov" and that Trump is only our friend until he isn't. But aside from that, endlessly monitoring him for "positive stereotyping" and maybe-tropes is myopic.
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