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Corruption in NYS repeal of RE
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 11:50 am
The bill passed in the Health committe via corruption:
Sayegh twice voted NO. You can decide whether it was bribery, threats, intimidation, or blackmail that Heastie used to get him to change his vote.

See it for yourself here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....PJih0


Now there are multiple lawsuits pending. Each lawyer asked for a restraining order, aka a "stay" to allow the kids to attend school until the outcome of the lawsuit. They've so far been denied. One judge, however, blasted the legistlature for the policy even while denying the stay. https://www.law.com/newyorklaw.....ents/

The lawyers went back for a re-argument, hoping to the judge might change his decision. He seemed very amenable to them. He said he would have a response within the week. Well, today is 2 weeks and two days later and the latest news is that the judge was put into early retirement. (He was a few weeks away from retirement.)

If the state is trying SO hard to get this to go their way, with corruption and force from all ends, it convinces me all the more that there is too much conflict of interest, money going into too many pockets, threats.... I cannot accept corruption.

If the state's position has validity and the people would really want this law, why do they need to resort to backhanded tactics? Why the corruption? This only turns me off even more and makes me question the whole vaccination program.
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amother




Plum
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 12:02 pm
I'm with you all the way.
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amother




Wine
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 12:10 pm
NJ is voting on this tomorrow and it's not looking good. So far the senate majority leader has replaced every democrat on the health committee that said he would vote against this with another member who will vote yes. This is rigged :'(
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amother




Seafoam
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 2:00 pm
[quote="amother [ Wine ]"]NJ is voting on this tomorrow and it's not looking good. So far the senate majority leader has replaced every democrat on the health committee that said he would vote against this with another member who will vote yes. This is rigged :'([/quote

Yes. This. My Facebook mom NJ groups are going crazy over this.
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amother




Rose
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 2:18 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
This only turns me off even more and makes me question the whole vaccination program.


Do you think the WHO is in anyway involved with NY politics?

Is the corruption worldwide?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 3:24 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
Do you think the WHO is in anyway involved with NY politics?

Is the corruption worldwide?


I know vaccines are recommended by the WHO, if that's what you're insinuating, but I also know that more than a majority of people vaccinate, so why the force? Let the people have a voice. People want choice even if they are pro-vax, as evidenced by the conclusions of the health committee.

Legal precedent has not yet been set forth in NYS on this matter. Let our judges decide.

My opinion is the corruption is based in the Democratic party of NYS. In the current political climate, they are overzealous and pushing too far without paying attention to what the people really want.
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amother




Rose
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 3:33 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I know vaccines are recommended by the WHO, if that's what you're insinuating, but I also know that more than a majority of people vaccinate, so why the force? Let the people have a voice. People want choice even if they are pro-vax, as evidenced by the conclusions of the health committee.

Legal precedent has not yet been set forth in NYS on this matter. Let our judges decide.

My opinion is the corruption is based in the Democratic party of NYS. In the current political climate, they are overzealous and pushing too far without paying attention to what the people really want.


My comment was that you are questioning the vaccination program because of the nastiness that is going on in state politics. I read that as questioning vaccine recommendations generally.

What is it about the vaccine program you are questioning?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 3:43 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
My comment was that you are questioning the vaccination program because of the nastiness that is going on in state politics. I read that as questioning vaccine recommendations generally.

What is it about the vaccine program you are questioning?

If it's really necessary to vaccinate for all these diseases so many doses.

Other countries and other states also recommend vaccines but they don't go crazy trying to force it in order to enforce it. If people are mostly "for" vaccines, nastiness isn't necessary to get them to vaccinate. Why is the state going crazy and needing to resort to all this corruption because of a tiny percentage of anti-vaxxers? And my next question that I'm wondering, would we have so many anti-vaxxers if the vaccination program was not mandated? Maybe more people would be willing to give some, a bit delayed, but in NYS they don't have that option and that turns them into anti-vax?
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amother




Lavender
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 3:50 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
The bill passed in the Health committe via corruption:
Sayegh twice voted NO. You can decide whether it was bribery, threats, intimidation, or blackmail that Heastie used to get him to change his vote.

See it for yourself here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....PJih0


Now there are multiple lawsuits pending. Each lawyer asked for a restraining order, aka a "stay" to allow the kids to attend school until the outcome of the lawsuit. They've so far been denied. One judge, however, blasted the legistlature for the policy even while denying the stay. https://www.law.com/newyorklaw.....ents/

The lawyers went back for a re-argument, hoping to the judge might change his decision. He seemed very amenable to them. He said he would have a response within the week. Well, today is 2 weeks and two days later and the latest news is that the judge was put into early retirement. (He was a few weeks away from retirement.)

If the state is trying SO hard to get this to go their way, with corruption and force from all ends, it convinces me all the more that there is too much conflict of interest, money going into too many pockets, threats.... I cannot accept corruption.

If the state's position has validity and the people would really want this law, why do they need to resort to backhanded tactics? Why the corruption? This only turns me off even more and makes me question the whole vaccination program.


There's corruption in so many aspects of our gov't. There's corruption in the healthcare funding, there's corruption in the eligibility in food stamps program, there's corruption in taxation, there's corruption in lobbying, there's corruption in obtaining school programs, there's corruption in revising zoning laws in our towns,, etc.

Why the outrage only at the RE? Is it because now you're on the disadvantageous side instead of the beneficial side?
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amother




Rose
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 4:00 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
If it's really necessary to vaccinate for all these diseases so many doses.

Other countries and other states also recommend vaccines but they don't go crazy trying to force it in order to enforce it. If people are mostly "for" vaccines, nastiness isn't necessary to get them to vaccinate. Why is the state going crazy and needing to resort to all this corruption because of a tiny percentage of anti-vaxxers? And my next question that I'm wondering, would we have so many anti-vaxxers if the vaccination program was not mandated? Maybe more people would be willing to give some, a bit delayed, but in NYS they don't have that option and that turns them into anti-vax?


That's two things. (1) the number of vaccines and (2) the policies over mandatory vaccination.

New York looked really bad in the news during the measles outbreak.

The basic argument is 'vaccination rates in our state are dropping, that is bad we need to fix it by making it harder to get out of vaccination'.

The question is - 'is it bad to have low rates of vaccination'? True "anti-vaxxers" - those that oppose vaccination would say 'no its not - vaccination rates should be near zero'.

But I agree with you - I think when people are forced to do something - they are going to question it a lot more than if its merely recommended. A lot less paranoia and conspiracy theories.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 4:11 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
That's two things. (1) the number of vaccines and (2) the policies over mandatory vaccination.

New York looked really bad in the news during the measles outbreak.

The basic argument is 'vaccination rates in our state are dropping, that is bad we need to fix it by making it harder to get out of vaccination'.

The question is - 'is it bad to have low rates of vaccination'? True "anti-vaxxers" - those that oppose vaccination would say 'no its not - vaccination rates should be near zero'.

But I agree with you - I think when people are forced to do something - they are going to question it a lot more than if its merely recommended. A lot less paranoia and conspiracy theories.

This makes sense. NYS is desperately trying to re make its image, but I still think it's only the Democrats who are concerned about this because for most people it would have been enough to repeal RE from MMR, like Washington state did after their outbreak.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 4:13 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
There's corruption in so many aspects of our gov't. There's corruption in the healthcare funding, there's corruption in the eligibility in food stamps program, there's corruption in taxation, there's corruption in lobbying, there's corruption in obtaining school programs, there's corruption in revising zoning laws in our towns,, etc.

Why the outrage only at the RE? Is it because now you're on the disadvantageous side instead of the beneficial side?

I don't understand your post. Yes, there's corruption all over and we discuss it IRL and on imamother plenty. You don't know me and which other threads I start. Are you saying I need to accept the corruption and that's it? Whatever corruption I hear about and follow makes me question why they need to resort to that tactic in order to get what they want. Why don't they have confidence in their product, whether it's zoning laws or school programs or whatever else.
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amother




Rose
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 4:19 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
This makes sense. NYS is desperately trying to re make its image, but I still think it's only the Democrats who are concerned about this because for most people it would have been enough to repeal RE from MMR, like Washington state did after their outbreak.


I think it was an irrational response too... on other hand - its also illogical to most people to have a religious objection to some vaccines and not others (yes I know why people think that its totally logical).

Personally - I think the mandatory vaccines should be the ones for diseases that spread through the air... the ones that are most susceptible to outbreak.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 7:05 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
I think it was an irrational response too... on other hand - its also illogical to most people to have a religious objection to some vaccines and not others (yes I know why people think that its totally logical).

Personally - I think the mandatory vaccines should be the ones for diseases that spread through the air... the ones that are most susceptible to outbreak.

I perfectly understand a religious objection to vaccines that are grown on a cell line from aborted fetal tissue. It's not my religion and I don't have an objection to it, but I can understand and respect someone who does. I can think of others that are logical too.

I agree with that conclusion of mandating vaccines that are most susceptible to outbreak, so why can't the government come to the same conclusion? And if there is a reasoning, why don't they use that as the motivation to push it forth? Why the need for backroom deals and whatnot?
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amother




Chocolate
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 7:22 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I perfectly understand a religious objection to vaccines that are grown on a cell line from aborted fetal tissue. It's not my religion and I don't have an objection to it, but I can understand and respect someone who does. I can think of others that are logical too.

I agree with that conclusion of mandating vaccines that are most susceptible to outbreak, so why can't the government come to the same conclusion? And if there is a reasoning, why don't they use that as the motivation to push it forth? Why the need for backroom deals and whatnot?


What about Kohanim? Is it considered tomei? Just curious, I'm pretty naive when it comes to this topic.
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amother




Rose
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 7:36 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I perfectly understand a religious objection to vaccines that are grown on a cell line from aborted fetal tissue. It's not my religion and I don't have an objection to it, but I can understand and respect someone who does. I can think of others that are logical too.

I agree with that conclusion of mandating vaccines that are most susceptible to outbreak, so why can't the government come to the same conclusion? And if there is a reasoning, why don't they use that as the motivation to push it forth? Why the need for backroom deals and whatnot?


Thanks. Which religion are you referring to?

I didn't draw a conclusion - its just my opinion.

The act that passed repealing the RE didn't address the mandatory vaccines already in the law. I'm guessing there just wasn't appetite to address the vaccine list - but I really have no idea.

What follows is the stated justification for the act to change the law as it was. IMO its a weak justification, as written.


JUSTIFICATION:

The United States is currently experiencing the worst outbreak of
measles since 1994, a disease that, in a major public health victory,
officials declared eliminated from the United States in 2000. 880 cases
of measles have been confirmed nationwide so far in 2019.

Outbreaks in New York have been the primary driver of this epidemic. As
of May 20th, 2019, there have been at least 810 confirmed cases of
measles in New York State since October 2018. The outbreaks have largely
been concentrated in communities in Brooklyn and Rockland County with
precipitously low immunization rates, some as low as 70 percent.

For guidance in dealing with this epidemic, we need only look to Cali-
fornia, which repealed all non-medical exemptions to vaccination
requirements under their state law after suffering an outbreak at
Disneyland in 2014 that resulted in at least 131 cases of measles (about
six times fewer cases than the current number of cases confirmed in New
York).

After California repealed their non-medical exemptions, their vaccina-
tion rates improved demonstrably, particularly in schools with the
lowest rates of compliance. The percentage of kindergarten students in
the 2017-18 school year with all their required vaccines was 95.1% - a
4.7 percentage point increase over 2014-15.

New York's law currently allows children to avoid vaccinations on the
grounds that they contradict the "genuine and sincere religious beliefs"
of the child's parent or guardian. New York should follow California's
example and repeal this provision of law.

Although freedom of religious expression is a founding tenet of this
nation, there is longstanding precedent establishing that one's right to
free religious expression does not include the right to endanger the
health of the community, one's children, or the children of others.

As far back as 1905, the U.S. Supreme Court held that it is within the
police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law in Jacob-
son v. Massachusetts. In the 1944 case Prince v. Massachusetts upholding
a conviction for a child labor law violation against a free exercise of
religion claim, the U.S. Supreme Court observed that "the right to prac-
tice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or
the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death."

In 2015, citing the Jacobson and Prince rulings as precedent, the Second
Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals opined in their ruling in Phillips
v. City of New York that "New York could constitutionally require that
all children be vaccinated in order to attend public school." The court
also stated, "New York law goes beyond what the Constitution requires by
allowing an exemption for parents with genuine and sincere religious
beliefs."

New York's Constitution specifically states that its protections for the
free exercise of religion "shall not be so construed as to justify prac-
tices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this state."

This legislation would repeal New York's religious exemption for vacci-
nation requirements to protect the health of all New Yorkers, partic-
ularly our children.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Wed, Dec 11 2019, 9:08 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
Thanks. Which religion are you referring to?

I didn't draw a conclusion - its just my opinion.

The act that passed repealing the RE didn't address the mandatory vaccines already in the law. I'm guessing there just wasn't appetite to address the vaccine list - but I really have no idea.

What follows is the stated justification for the act to change the law as it was. IMO its a weak justification, as written.


JUSTIFICATION:

The United States is currently experiencing the worst outbreak of
measles since 1994, a disease that, in a major public health victory,
officials declared eliminated from the United States in 2000. 880 cases
of measles have been confirmed nationwide so far in 2019.

Outbreaks in New York have been the primary driver of this epidemic. As
of May 20th, 2019, there have been at least 810 confirmed cases of
measles in New York State since October 2018. The outbreaks have largely
been concentrated in communities in Brooklyn and Rockland County with
precipitously low immunization rates, some as low as 70 percent.

For guidance in dealing with this epidemic, we need only look to Cali-
fornia, which repealed all non-medical exemptions to vaccination
requirements under their state law after suffering an outbreak at
Disneyland in 2014 that resulted in at least 131 cases of measles (about
six times fewer cases than the current number of cases confirmed in New
York).

After California repealed their non-medical exemptions, their vaccina-
tion rates improved demonstrably, particularly in schools with the
lowest rates of compliance. The percentage of kindergarten students in
the 2017-18 school year with all their required vaccines was 95.1% - a
4.7 percentage point increase over 2014-15.

New York's law currently allows children to avoid vaccinations on the
grounds that they contradict the "genuine and sincere religious beliefs"
of the child's parent or guardian. New York should follow California's
example and repeal this provision of law.

Although freedom of religious expression is a founding tenet of this
nation, there is longstanding precedent establishing that one's right to
free religious expression does not include the right to endanger the
health of the community, one's children, or the children of others.

As far back as 1905, the U.S. Supreme Court held that it is within the
police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law in Jacob-
son v. Massachusetts. In the 1944 case Prince v. Massachusetts upholding
a conviction for a child labor law violation against a free exercise of
religion claim, the U.S. Supreme Court observed that "the right to prac-
tice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or
the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death."

In 2015, citing the Jacobson and Prince rulings as precedent, the Second
Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals opined in their ruling in Phillips
v. City of New York that "New York could constitutionally require that
all children be vaccinated in order to attend public school." The court
also stated, "New York law goes beyond what the Constitution requires by
allowing an exemption for parents with genuine and sincere religious
beliefs."

New York's Constitution specifically states that its protections for the
free exercise of religion "shall not be so construed as to justify prac-
tices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this state."

This legislation would repeal New York's religious exemption for vacci-
nation requirements to protect the health of all New Yorkers, partic-
ularly our children.


Catholics are against abortion and thus against vaccines with aborted fetal tissue.

The justification sounds legally precedented and apparently, at least so far, it has withstood challenges both in CA and in NY. As such, why the need to re-vote in the health committe? Wouldn't they all have agreed with the above? Why the need to keep removing judges who are hearing these cases?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Dec 12 2019, 11:54 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
NJ is voting on this tomorrow and it's not looking good. So far the senate majority leader has replaced every democrat on the health committee that said he would vote against this with another member who will vote yes. This is rigged :'(

This totally happened. Sweeney replaced three Dems who vowed to vote no on the health committee. https://njvaccinechoice.com/se.....ghts/ The rumors were true. Two Dems who were present abstained from a vote. It passed 6 to 4. Monday the vote is going to the floor.

Why the need for the switcheroo? You have a plan, make it work with the representatives who were actually elected to represent their constituents. If they don't agree to it, it shouldn't pass. The corruption is a big red flag for me.
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amother




Rose
 

Post  Fri, Dec 13 2019, 12:40 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
This totally happened. Sweeney replaced three Dems who vowed to vote no on the health committee. https://njvaccinechoice.com/se.....ghts/ The rumors were true. Two Dems who were present abstained from a vote. It passed 6 to 4. Monday the vote is going to the floor.

Why the need for the switcheroo? You have a plan, make it work with the representatives who were actually elected to represent their constituents. If they don't agree to it, it shouldn't pass. The corruption is a big red flag for me.


Red flag for what?
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amother




Rose
 

Post  Fri, Dec 13 2019, 12:43 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Catholics are against abortion and thus against vaccines with aborted fetal tissue.

The justification sounds legally precedented and apparently, at least so far, it has withstood challenges both in CA and in NY. As such, why the need to re-vote in the health committe? Wouldn't they all have agreed with the above? Why the need to keep removing judges who are hearing these cases?


The Justification was for the bill to remove RE in NY. I'm not sure what you are asking.
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