Why are there so many frum anti-vaxxers?

Teomima

Wed, Dec 11 2019, 11:59 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

To you it may seem that there are so many frum antivaxxers, perhaps because you see and speak to frum yidden more than random non Jews from all over the US, or maybe because we live so concentrated in one area so it seems like a lot. But in reality there are thousands of non Jewish antivaxxers all over the us who have never even seen a Jew. Jewish antivaxxers are the tiny minority in the antivax community.

The problem is the non-frum antivaxxer community doesn't tend to live in large relatively segregated pockets like the frum community. Living this way eliminates the benefits of herd immunity, thus the recent horrible outbreak of measles in New York and Israel.

Also one of the worst countries in the world in terms of having one of the highest rates of measles outbreaks is Ukraine (according to the CDC. This is not my own made up statistic). The measles rate in Israel skyrocketed after last Rosh Hashanah. That's not a coincidence.

Bleemee

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:02 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

I wont out myself here but im already a third generation antivaxer so no peach and no hotline , it started out as a philosophical objection going against being forced to inject unnatural foreign matter for the sake officially of becoming healthier. didnt make sense from a hashkafadik and common sense angle. We believe a perfect Gd created humans perfect except male babies need bris. didnt make sense to say He made them with missing vit k and missing antibodies. injecting disease to avoid disease is trying to outsmart Gd and not in line with how we yidden view Gd. the same mentality thats against dor yeshorim. lo sachakor achar hoasidos. this is imo a true example of a religious belief even though its not judaism who says this but one persons take on it. they lived their whole life in line with their belief, not pick and choose. then as the schedule grew the resistance grew. much later came the awareness of adverse reactions.

I'm curious, does this mean your family is only meshadech with other families who also don't do Dor Yeshorim and don't vaccinate?
ETA can you explain what you mean, in what other ways did they live their life like this, not picking and choosing?

Last edited by Bleemee on Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ecru

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:04 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Where do you learn this from?

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:04 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

For the millionth time, most of us are not concerned about the minute amount of the virus in the vaccine. It's the other harmful agents we are concerned about. Agents which cross the blood brain barrier, cell tissue which replicate over and over again creating a perfect breeding ground for cancerous growth etc.

So no dear, these agents are not harmless. Especially when you are injecting it, not ingesting.

Oh, and the theoretical concept of herd immunity through vaccination applies to measles, mumps, rubella and polio. Diphtheria and pertussis vaccine do not prevent transmission. And the rest of the mandated ones are non communicable at all or via casual contact.

Herd immunity is not a theoretical concept !! Banging head

amother

Olive

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:07 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

My question to you is precisely that - WHY AREN'T you concerned about the virus itself. Maybe its not those "harmful" agents you profess that are causing the adverse effects but the virus itself is the cause?

Look at how the flu attacks people (healthy people). Some people come down with mild symptoms, some with moderate, and a few come down with critical life threatening symptoms. That flu virus doesn't have any "harmful" agents attached to it, but it hits people so very differently. Why is that? Maybe it's the genetic makeup of the specific individuals that causes the difference.

It's easy to latch on what one may think is obvious. But the studies how disease & vaccine affects different genomes is in its infancy. There isn't enough info yet to prove any claim. So both possibilities are in play. It could be those "harmful" agents or it could equally very well be the disease response to your specific genome that's causing the adverse effects. And if it's the latter, destroying herd immunity is essentially shooting yourself in the foot (or rather, head).

If I were in that position, I wouldn't take the chance unless there are critical adverse responses to the vaccines.

amother

Blue

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:07 am

I'm curious how anyone can trust the drug companies who write the study conclusions on their own products.
How many drugs need to be recalled, how many people need to be poisoned, before we open our eyes?
Thalidomide, anyone?
Or further back- the poison gas used in the gas chambers in the Holocaust?

Keep your #$%^ away from my family. We are not your guinea pigs.

amother

Olive

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:10 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

Or back to centuries ago where losing a child was a commonplace event for everyone.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:11 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Why didnt gd create men not needing a bris ? What about the scientists brains that came up with vaccines and medications that gd created? Are you saying hashem only creates perfect Humans but not their minds that came up with medications and scientific advances ? That's not Gds doing ?
So do you dont take any medications whatsoever? I hope you dont eat anything that was genetically modified . You must live on a farm and only eat whatever you can grow because gd created a perfect world and anything that man kind came up with ( mind you the man kind that hashem created ) doesnt count ? I agree with you that hashem created a perfect world but to say he created only people perfectly then you must agree that he created the scientists minds that came up with all these amazing life saving advances ...

amother

Ecru

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:13 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

If you are going to quote the few, unfortunate mistakes of the drug companies and the medical field, then don't take advantage of any part of modern medicine. I dare you to go drug free the rest of your life. Don't you dare go to the eye dr, they didn't have those 1000 years ago. Give birth in your own bed with only a neighbor to help you, and never step into an ER.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:14 am

[quote="amother [ Blue ]"]I'm curious how anyone can trust the drug companies who write the study conclusions on their own products.
How many drugs need to be recalled, how many people need to be poisoned, before we open our eyes?
Thalidomide, anyone?
Or further back- the poison gas used in the gas chambers in the Holocaust?

Keep your #$%^ away from my family. We are not your guinea

I'm guessing this means you dont take any medications at all ? Your family is completely drug free ? That's pretty impressive.

amother

Plum

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:14 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

Are you saying you don't believe in the bolded?

The idea of herd immunity comes from when a whole city of children got the infection at once and once they did, nobody got it until the next generation of children got it, which also served to boost the immunity of the kids who had it already. With the natural infection it works, because everyone develops immunity (unlike the vaccine) and immunity doesn't wear off (unlike the vaccine). That is real herd immunity.

Herd immunity can't ever occur with the vaccine because of two factors:
1. Some people don't develop immunity regardless of how many doses they get. And even when you do develop immunity it may or may not wear off with time. So we will always have pockets of people who are not protected.

2. Let's take chicken pox for example. Young children are getting a vaccine against a mostly benign childhood infection. So the rates of chicken pox decreased. We know that immunity gets boosted if you are next to a child who has an infection which you are immune to. So when all children had chicken pox you hardly heard of an adult getting shingles because their immunity was constantly upped. Now that we have only a handful of kids getting chicken pox, we are not exposed to the infection and adults are not getting the required natural immunity booster. So ironically, in this sense, vaccines are preventing herd immunity to certain diseases from happening.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:14 am

southernbubby wrote:

PEACH magazine and aishes chayal hotline

Lots of health food stores and alternative medicine practioners

General distrust of government and doctors

Possibly more genetic disorders in Jewish population that up the risk of adverse vaccine reactions.

A view of medicine that we should not take risks for diseases that we might never encounter.

A close friend I've had for decades just became an anti-vaxer and I'm having a lot of trouble with it. None of the above apply to her. She's educated, worldly, and not at all sheltered. I can't understand it tbh, and it's really disturbing me.

amother

Plum

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:17 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

It's not the mistakes that turn people away. It's the callous, arrogant way they respond (or don't) to those mistakes.

amother

Natural

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:18 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

It's pretty offensive to bring zyklon b into this conversation. Plus totally unrelated.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:19 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

1) For those who don't develop immunity regardless, if they never come in contact with the disease because everyone who can get the vaccine gets it, they will not get sick.

2) I do not know whether or not what you wrote about adults getting the "natural booster" is true, but again, if the overwhelming majority of people get the shingles vaccine who are the adults catching it from?

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:20 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Just because shes educated and worldly doesn't mean she knows anything regarding vaccines and b. Why dont you ask her why she became an anti vaxxer ?
C. Keep your kids away from her children

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:22 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Wrong. We don't give a **** whether you think we are intelligent, stupid, ludicrous or brilliant. All we want is for you to leave us alone and let us make our own decisions regarding the children we love. And you make yours. Stop harassing, bullying, shaming, and calling us murderers. My unvaccinated perfectly healthy (b''h) children are not a threat to your children. During an outbreak most of us kept our children home. You chose to take note of the small percentage who didn't. Ok. Your choice.

But the virus couldn't have spread if everyone had immunity. So no, it's not true that not vaccinating doesn't hurt anyone else.

amother

Plum

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:23 am

Also, the way you're comparing preventative care of healthy people to medical treatment of the sick is totally off the mark.

For a sick person risks can and should be taken if there is a chance of saving their life. There is no excuse, though, for taking a risk for a perfectly healthy and strong person because of societal pressure or legal mandates. If you believe in its safety then I guess its ok for you.

amother

Olive

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:28 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

#2 is a possibly a temporary situation, just growing pains. Having had chicken pox is the precursor to shingles. Current studies show that children who get the vaccines are about 75% less likely to contract shingles. Obviously, if that will hold true for later in life is something that we have to wait for. But if that holds true, the varicella vaccine can eliminate both.

But in the meantime, till this info is known, they've developed a shingles vaccine to eliminate the situation you describe.