Why are there so many frum anti-vaxxers?

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 7:31 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

If you are going to quote the few, unfortunate mistakes of the drug companies and the medical field, then don't take advantage of any part of modern medicine. I dare you to go drug free the rest of your life. Don't you dare go to the eye dr, they didn't have those 1000 years ago. Give birth in your own bed with only a neighbor to help you, and never step into an ER.

Are The days of using my own brain to pick n choose which pharma product I would like to enjoy, over?

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 7:33 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

A close friend I've had for decades just became an anti-vaxer and I'm having a lot of trouble with it. None of the above apply to her. She's educated, worldly, and not at all sheltered. I can't understand it tbh, and it's really disturbing me.

What's troubling about someone disagreeing with your opinion?

amother

Denim

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:05 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

what point?

To me it just proves that most provaxxers vaccinate out of default and not because of scientific backing...

Unfortunately a lot of us stop for injuries too. I dont care what drs or statistics say. If I see injury such as death, seizures caused 100% by vaccines- I dont want to take that risk. Those happened to close family and friend

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:09 am

notshanarishona wrote:

My opinion wont be a popular one but I don't think the anti vaxers (except those with medical reasons) are truly frum. People who think they are starter than most of daas torah , don't care about their affects on others, and find their own rabbis based on what answer they want to find are not yiray shamayim.

So then they quote R' Shmuel Kaminetsky who supposedly said it's assur to get vaccinated

amother

Natural

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:15 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

And on the 8th day God realized he had made an entire species with an imperfect immune system.

So He created Merck and Pfizer.

Nope. But with that world view it is a slippery slope until they decide bris mila would marr the imperfection of the human body.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:17 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

What's troubling about someone disagreeing with your opinion?

Nothing wrong with disagreeing. I have friends who have gone otd. I have friends who have opposite political views. I love and respect them and our different views hasn't affected our friendship. I consider myself an accepting person and I try to find shared ground. But as I tried to explain, it's very disturbing to me because this is not at all her personality.

The only thing I can think of is that she believes her child had a vaccine injury this past year so maybe this is an emotional response, similar to the way some people find religion during hard times. To be clear. I agree that it's possible vaccines can cause injuries that we don't understand. But when you say that vaccines are not responsible for eradicating polio, I'm sorry that sounds beyond logic. And she herself had the same arguments with anti-vaxers not that long ago! But when I ask her to explain and break down how it's possible that that's the case, she can't, she switches to a different topic like additives in measles vaccine.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:25 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

It seems. Like you believe that polio was erradicated by the vaccine
What about scarlet fever which they worked on a vaccine during the same time but couldn't create succesfully ?
Aren't you afraid of malaria too?
Typhoid?
Smallpox?
Someone just told me that she remembers the polio outbreak and her parents refusing the vaccine. So...

I don't understand your point about other diseases. If people were given the polio vaccine en masse, and then polio disappeared, AND their blood titers showed they now have immunity to it, AND other people in other parts of the world who have not been vaccinated ARE still contracting polio, but outbreaks have stopped in placed like India once mass immunization programs were implemented, AND those peoples' titers also now show immunity....I mean any explanation other than the polio vaccine just seems completely beyond logic. But if I'm missing something in your explanation I am sincerely asking you to explain because I do want to understand where you're coming from.

I also don't understand your point about the person whose parents refused the vaccine. What does that show? My mother has a friend in her 70's who is a quadriplegic from having contracted ~~the measles~~ polio as a child. Her weakened lungs and muscles cause her constant, nonstop pain, lower immunity, etc. Her quality of life is horrible, even all these years later.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:30 am

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

Fwiw I think this is a very fair and honest thing to say. Completely different than saying that vaccines don't prevent disease and never have.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:52 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I don't understand your point about other diseases. If people were given the polio vaccine en masse, and then polio disappeared, AND their blood titers showed they now have immunity to it, AND other people in other parts of the world who have not been vaccinated ARE still contracting polio, but outbreaks have stopped in placed like India once mass immunization programs were implemented, AND those peoples' titers also now show immunity....I mean any explanation other than the polio vaccine just seems completely beyond logic. But if I'm missing something in your explanation I am sincerely asking you to explain because I do want to understand where you're coming from.

I also don't understand your point about the person whose parents refused the vaccine. What does that show? My mother has a friend in her 70's who is a quadriplegic from having contracted the measles as a child. Her weakened lungs and muscles cause her constant, nonstop pain, lower immunity, etc. Her quality of life is horrible, even all these years later.

the alternative explanation is that when polio was around and the polio vaccine , which sheds, was being given en masse, many people caught asymptomatic polio without knowing they have it. polio in most people manifests itself as a cold , then they go on to develop immunity and then polio disappeared and their blood titers show they have immunity.
and other people in other parts of the world ARE contracting polio because theyre not immune yet to it by exposure. it's a chicken egg situation , outbreak brings immunity but also brings vaccination which also brings immunity but somehow the vaccination gets the credit.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:55 am

Bleemee wrote:

I'm curious, does this mean your family is only meshadech with other families who also don't do Dor Yeshorim and don't vaccinate?
ETA can you explain what you mean, in what other ways did they live their life like this, not picking and choosing?

no because we know that many ppl have different shita
they didnt pick and choose that theyre only against vaccines. theyre against most thing that arent natural , like dor yeshorim and processsed food and medications

amother

Blush

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:59 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Poor science education.
A sense of pride about being outside the mainstream.
A distrust of the larger society.

That's the main reason.
Any college graduate who is anti-vax either has a money-making agenda or had a horribly inadequate science education and should never have been in college to begin with (and probably wouldn't have graduated if we hadn't lowered the standards).

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 9:00 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Why didnt gd create men not needing a bris ? What about the scientists brains that came up with vaccines and medications that gd created? Are you saying hashem only creates perfect Humans but not their minds that came up with medications and scientific advances ? That's not Gds doing ?
So do you dont take any medications whatsoever? I hope you dont eat anything that was genetically modified . You must live on a farm and only eat whatever you can grow because gd created a perfect world and anything that man kind came up with ( mind you the man kind that hashem created ) doesnt count ? I agree with you that hashem created a perfect world but to say he created only people perfectly then you must agree that he created the scientists minds that came up with all these amazing life saving advances ...

I dont know and I dont question gd. He gave us mitzva of bris mila so we do it, if He wouldnt command us to do it we definitely wouldnt. we avoid medication gmos and eat home grown or locally grown as much as possible.

amother

Blush

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 9:02 am

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

Most cases of seizures happen completely randomly without any discernable trigger.
Are you saying it's better to get the disease, risk complications and a significant risk of death, than to have a couple febrile seizures?

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Dec 12 2019, 9:02 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Honestly the whole philosophy about humans being born with perfect bodies sounds like it's straight out of the Greek/Hellenistic worldview. I've been listening to Jewish history lectures. That's exactly what they espoused and it is antithetical to the Torah view.

greeks worshipped their bodies, jews dont, they just dont mess with it . we have many mitzvos not to harm ourselves and no tattoos and no tearing out hair...