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WAKE UP!! it has nothing to do with religion!!
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 10:18 am
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
So now I need to post my kids' vaccine records in order to post on imamother? Wow.

I am saying there is corruption here and it stinks. You're saying either there's no corruption or it doesn't stink.

Never said either, what an overreaction. This over the top reaction and refusal to rationally discuss anything brought up that you can't easily refute is the way the anti vax threads seem to always go. That's what I'm saying.
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amother




Tan
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 10:23 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Never said either, what an overreaction. This over the top reaction and refusal to rationally discuss anything brought up that you can't easily refute is the way the anti vax threads seem to always go. That's what I'm saying.


So maybe I'm turning into an anti-vaxxer lol.

What *did* you say?
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 10:29 am
Pretty simply that at any time someone brought up a fact or issue that you didn't want to discuss you said the equivalent of "I'm not commenting on that" or "let's keep the discussion to xyz"
How is this related to anti vax threads? That's usually how they end up devolving. I just made the connection since it is somewhat ironic.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 11:14 am
Trying to rmmbr to respond to individual points but in general
Banging head Banging head
I give up on this site. I've been following NJ fb groups who include all members including super pro vax and there are very real concerns. It's hard for me to follow it all so I can't be bothered to really repost it all here but it's not fear mongering. Those women have gone to Trenton and are campaigning hard. It's so frustrating to come here and everyone is all "well after all there was measles" and "well maybe if ppl didn't abuse the RE" when just following the politics of this has made it increasingly clear the proposed bills have nothing to do with either of the above. They were going to happen anyways. Punkt the measles was a great media opportunity but there's no way all of this is in mere response to that.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 11:46 am
If it has nothing to do with religion, why did so many moms pressure schools to accept their religious exemptions?

Of course this is all in response to the measles outbreak. As upset as anti-vaxxers are at the current state of affairs, realize that there are many more pro-vaxxers who were horrified by what the measles outbreak brought to light, and put pressure on their government officials to do something about it.

Right or wrong, this new bill was created in response to abuse of the RE. The measles outbreak shed light on what was really going on with our schools and the pressure that anti-vaxx parents were putting on their school administration to accept the RE. Once our communities caught on to what was really going on under-the-table with vaccinations, they wanted to do something about it.

As much pressure as anti vaxxers may be placing on their politicians publicly, I guarantee you that there are many more pro-vaxxers putting pressure on their politicians behind the scenes.

You don't like it, OK- people don't like when their schools are pressured to accept RE's when it has nothing to do with religion and it can put some students at risk. The whole pressure-the-schools-to-accept-the-RE thing was done in a very deceptive way, it's not like anyone would publicly state that they were using an RE- no, of course not- everything was done very hush hush- if you believe in what you're doing, why not say "I'm using an RE" and share the info loud & proud? Hmmm.

If there were a true medical concern (a child reacted badly to a shot, etc, and received a medical exemption) don't you think people in your neighborhood would be supportive of the decision to hold off on vaccinations? Of course people would be understanding. We get it, we're parents too. We all want our children to be safe. But that relates specifically to a TRUE medical concern. A religious exemption is a totally different story. Because this has nothing to do with religion. And you know it.

That's life. It's never good to be deceptive in general. Now we all have to deal with this bill, whatever it entails.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 12:08 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Trying to rmmbr to respond to individual points but in general
Banging head Banging head
I give up on this site. I've been following NJ fb groups who include all members including super pro vax and there are very real concerns. It's hard for me to follow it all so I can't be bothered to really repost it all here but it's not fear mongering. Those women have gone to Trenton and are campaigning hard. It's so frustrating to come here and everyone is all "well after all there was measles" and "well maybe if ppl didn't abuse the RE" when just following the politics of this has made it increasingly clear the proposed bills have nothing to do with either of the above. They were going to happen anyways. Punkt the measles was a great media opportunity but there's no way all of this is in mere response to that.


There were always religious groups who opposed using medical care and nobody felt threatened by them so what would make the public turn against those who only wanted freedom of religion?
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 12:14 pm
gold21 wrote:
If it has nothing to do with religion, why did so many moms pressure schools to accept their religious exemptions?

Of course this is all in response to the measles outbreak. As upset as anti-vaxxers are at the current state of affairs, realize that there are many more pro-vaxxers who were horrified by what the measles outbreak brought to light, and put pressure on their government officials to do something about it.

Right or wrong, this new bill was created in response to abuse of the RE. The measles outbreak shed light on what was really going on with our schools and the pressure that anti-vaxx parents were putting on their school administration to accept the RE. Once our communities caught on to what was really going on under-the-table with vaccinations, they wanted to do something about it.

As much pressure as anti vaxxers may be placing on their politicians publicly, I guarantee you that there are many more pro-vaxxers putting pressure on their politicians behind the scenes.

You don't like it, OK- people don't like when their schools are pressured to accept RE's when it has nothing to do with religion and it can put some students at risk. The whole pressure-the-schools-to-accept-the-RE thing was done in a very deceptive way, it's not like anyone would publicly state that they were using an RE- no, of course not- everything was done very hush hush- if you believe in what you're doing, why not say "I'm using an RE" and share the info loud & proud? Hmmm.

If there were a true medical concern (a child reacted badly to a shot, etc, and received a medical exemption) don't you think people in your neighborhood would be supportive of the decision to hold off on vaccinations? Of course people would be understanding. We get it, we're parents too. We all want our children to be safe. But that relates specifically to a TRUE medical concern. A religious exemption is a totally different story. Because this has nothing to do with religion. And you know it.

That's life. It's never good to be deceptive in general. Now we all have to deal with this bill, whatever it entails.


The people who showed up with non vaccinated children at the bungalow the summer before the outbreak got a very different reception the summer after the outbreak. Seems nobody knew about the vaccine injuries or bad reactions in those families.
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amother




Tan
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 3:25 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Pretty simply that at any time someone brought up a fact or issue that you didn't want to discuss you said the equivalent of "I'm not commenting on that" or "let's keep the discussion to xyz"
How is this related to anti vax threads? That's usually how they end up devolving. I just made the connection since it is somewhat ironic.

Show me where that happened except once where I said I don't want to comment on the possible abuse of RE. In fact, indigo amother accused me of derailing when I brought in NY and she thought this thread was about NJ. But whatever. If we're arguing now about how we argue instead of the topic on hand, now that's a politics thread, if I ever saw any. Banging head
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amother




Tan
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 3:37 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
So maybe I'm turning into an anti-vaxxer lol.

What *did* you say?

I am still waiting to hear a summary of your position regarding the corruption in getting these bills passed and keeping them in effect. I summarized your position the way I understood it (possibly confusing you with indigo amother). Yet, other than telling me I didn't get right, you didn't deem it important enough to clarify your position.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 3:49 pm
I'm not sure what you want me to summarize. I didn't specify any positions. Just mentioned the people who misused REs. Which you never addressed except to say you don't want to comment on it.
I really don't have patience to debate with someone who will only nitpick tiny details yet will ignore the main points being brought up.
Which brings me to my new years resolution if you will. I will no longer be opening or participating in any vaccination threads. Which is something I feel the majority of posters have been doing lately, anyway. I've noticed that most vaccination threads don't get too many responses anymore. Not because they've been convinced to change their opinions I think they just don't see the point. So argue about government overreach all you want but I think you are doing it to a smaller and smaller audience.
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amother




Tan
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:06 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
I'm not sure what you want me to summarize. I didn't specify any positions. Just mentioned the people who misused REs. Which you never addressed except to say you don't want to comment on it.
I really don't have patience to debate with someone who will only nitpick tiny details yet will ignore the main points being brought up.
Which brings me to my new years resolution if you will. I will no longer be opening or participating in any vaccination threads. Which is something I feel the majority of posters have been doing lately, anyway. I've noticed that most vaccination threads don't get too many responses anymore. Not because they've been convinced to change their opinions I think they just don't see the point. So argue about government overreach all you want but I think you are doing it to a smaller and smaller audience.

Talk about the devolvement of a thread. LOL

I said there's corruption and it stinks. I said you said that either there's no corruption or it doesn't stink (because that's regular run-of-the-mill politics). You responded by saying you didn't say that. So what did you say? Instead of answering, you run away. Cool.
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amother




Taupe
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:14 pm
It's incredibly ironic that on a Jewish forum, people are arguing for the State to step in and decide which medical procedures should be forced onto parents. Fine, two can play this game.

Maybe circumcision including brit milah, should be banned, at least until a child becomes an adult? After all, many argue that circumcision, whether for religious or personal reasons, is genital mutilation, and a child should have a say in matters regarding what happens to his most intimate parts. That sounds reasonable, no? "Oh no, because there are health benefits to circumcision," you say. The medical research and statistical data do not back up the thesis that circumcised males are significantly healthier than non-circumcised males. But, "This is a religious issue," you say. Alright then, should circumcision be allowed for only Jewish and Muslim parents? What if someone belongs to a sect of x-tianity which believes in circumcision? What if it's just their own personal religious belief? Or are you not allowed to have your own personal religious beliefs if you label yourself Jewish, Muslim or X-tian? So then, perhaps it is that you want the State to allow circumcision, even if the majority of the population were to decide its 'genital mutilation,' because that's what you like to do; but you don't want parents to have the right to refuse vaccines for their children, because that's not what you like.

The truth is, if you want the State to force someone elses' kids into taking vaccines, you're just a stone throw away from the State deciding whether you have the right to practice your 'barbaric' 'genital mutilation' rituals in the 21t century. Or deciding whether your religious education is 'brainwashing' the State's your kids. Or whether you're justified in having 8 kids when you're on government programs. And so on. This is the unfortunate thing about liberty- you only get the right to make your own unconventional decisions when others get the right to make their own unconventional decisions.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:44 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
It's incredibly ironic that on a Jewish forum, people are arguing for the State to step in and decide which medical procedures should be forced onto parents. Fine, two can play this game.

Maybe circumcision including brit milah, should be banned, at least until a child becomes an adult? After all, many argue that circumcision, whether for religious or personal reasons, is genital mutilation, and a child should have a say in matters regarding what happens to his most intimate parts. That sounds reasonable, no? "Oh no, because there are health benefits to circumcision," you say. The medical research and statistical data do not back up the thesis that circumcised males are significantly healthier than non-circumcised males. But, "This is a religious issue," you say. Alright then, should circumcision be allowed for only Jewish and Muslim parents? What if someone belongs to a sect of x-tianity which believes in circumcision? What if it's just their own personal religious belief? Or are you not allowed to have your own personal religious beliefs if you label yourself Jewish, Muslim or X-tian? So then, perhaps it is that you want the State to allow circumcision, even if the majority of the population were to decide its 'genital mutilation,' because that's what you like to do; but you don't want parents to have the right to refuse vaccines for their children, because that's not what you like.

The truth is, if you want the State to force someone elses' kids into taking vaccines, you're just a stone throw away from the State deciding whether you have the right to practice your 'barbaric' 'genital mutilation' rituals in the 21t century. Or deciding whether your religious education is 'brainwashing' the State's your kids. Or whether you're justified in having 8 kids when you're on government programs. And so on. This is the unfortunate thing about liberty- you only get the right to make your own unconventional decisions when others get the right to make their own unconventional decisions.


Hehe.

Whether or not someone gives their child a bris milah has no impact on the world around them. So it's totally up to that family to decide.

As for vaccinations, uh.... Not quite the same thing. The decision not to vaxx can have serious implications on the world around those who make that choice. Not exactly occuring in a bubble.

And, yeah, I do think that dangerous religious choices should be monitored to an extent.
Should muslim families that believe in FGM be allowed to do what they want with their underage girls because of "religious rights"? Uh, no, not really. Barbaric practices should be outlawed.

Now, obviously there's a fine line, one that, as jewish women, none of us wants crossed. But as of now, I don't see any lines crossed.

Now, hug my post all you want (I'm so afraid of you huggers- really, whenever I have a minute to glance at Imamother on my phone and I see those hugs on my posts, I shiver in my boots), but realize that at least I took the time to respond. Most posters seem to be ignoring this thread.


Last edited by gold21 on Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Indigo
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:45 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
Without any other context, I would have thought so. But following the events in NY and in NJ has made me re-think this cause and effect. At this point, I think the trigger for this bill is money going into the right pockets. There, I said it. Call me a conspiracy theorist.


You are a conspiracy theorist
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:52 pm
gold21 wrote:
Hehe.

Whether or not someone gives their child a bris milah has no impact on the world around them. So it's totally up to that family to decide.

As for vaccinations, uh.... Not quite the same thing. The decision not to vaxx can have serious implications on the world around those who make that choice. Not exactly occuring in a bubble.

And, yeah, I do think that dangerous religious choices should be monitored to an extent.
Should muslim families that believe in FGM be allowed to do what they want with their underage girls because of "religious rights"? Uh, no, not really. Barbaric practices should be outlawed.

Now, obviously there's a fine line, one that, as jewish women, none of us wants crossed. But as of now, I don't see any lines crossed.

Now, hug my post all you want (I'm so afraid of you huggers- really, whenever I have a minute to glance at Imamother on my phone and I see those hugs on my posts, I shiver in my boots), but realize that at least I took the time to respond. Most posters seem to be ignoring this thread.


Man you're missing the point.
You know what, I would be OK if they say MMR is mandatory bc there was a measles outbreak. But they're not. They're saying every single vaccine including new ones including HPV is going to be mandatory.
Hep, hpv those only affect the individual. It's not your concern if my kid gets an STD and it shouldn't be the govt.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:54 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Man you're missing the point.
You know what, I would be OK if they say MMR is mandatory bc there was a measles outbreak. But they're not. They're saying every single vaccine including new ones including HPV is going to be mandatory.
Hep, hpv those only affect the individual. It's not your concern if my kid gets an STD and it shouldn't be the govt.


OK- fair point-

I don't disagree.

But what about vaccines such as MMR?

So do you agree most vaccines should be mandated, other than those that only affect the individual?
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amother




Indigo
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:55 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Man you're missing the point.
You know what, I would be OK if they say MMR is mandatory bc there was a measles outbreak. But they're not. They're saying every single vaccine including new ones including HPV is going to be mandatory.
Hep, hpv those only affect the individual. It's not your concern if my kid gets an STD and it shouldn't be the govt.


What is the point?

Every vaccine is mandatory (for schooling) The bill doesn’t change that.
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amother




Taupe
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:56 pm
gold21 wrote:
Hehe.

Whether or not someone gives their child a bris milah has no impact on the world around them. So it's totally up to that family to decide.

As for vaccinations, uh.... Not quite the same thing. The decision not to vaxx can have serious implications on the world around those who make that choice. Not exactly occuring in a bubble.

And, yeah, I do think that dangerous religious choices should be monitored to an extent.
Should muslim families that believe in FGM be allowed to do what they want with their underage girls because of "religious rights"? Uh, no, not really. Barbaric practices should be outlawed.

Now, obviously there's a fine line, one that, as jewish women, none of us wants crossed. But as of now, I don't see any lines crossed.

Now, hug my post all you want (I'm so afraid of you huggers- really, whenever I have a minute to glance at Imamother on my phone and I see those hugs on my posts, I shiver in my boots), but realize that at least I took the time to respond. Most posters seem to be ignoring this thread.


A person who believes circumcision is harmful once told me that circumcision is, in their opinion, child abuse because it alters a child's genitals. That was their and NOT my opinion. So those who argue circumcision including brit milah should be forbidden are not concerned with the world around the child, but rather the safety and welfare of the individual child.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 4:59 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
A person who believes circumcision is harmful once told me that circumcision is, in their opinion, child abuse because it alters a child's genitals. That was their and NOT my opinion. So those who argue circumcision including brit milah should be forbidden are not concerned with the world around the child, but rather the safety and welfare of the individual child.


And that's a very unpopular opinion, luckily.

Many parents circumcise, Jewish or non Jewish.

I'll bet those who are anti circumcision are more likely to be anti vaccine anyway. The body knows what it's doing- don't mess with it- etc....
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amother




Tan
 

Post  Sun, Dec 15 2019, 5:24 pm
gold21 wrote:
And that's a very unpopular opinion, luckily.

Many parents circumcise, Jewish or non Jewish.

I'll bet those who are anti circumcision are more likely to be anti vaccine anyway. The body knows what it's doing- don't mess with it- etc....

I believe this is totally off topic, but here are the facts according to Wikipedia:
Quote:
The new generation of American boys is less likely to be circumcised, however. A HCUP statistical brief reported in February 2012 that circumcisions had dropped from around 60% in 2000 to 54.5% in 2009.[25] In 2010, the CDC reported a steep decline in circumcision rates of newborns, from 56% in 2007 to just over 30% in 2009
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