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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Chanukah
The Commercialization of Chanukah
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 8:53 am
ectomorph wrote:
Sorry, by Chanukah it is more parallel to x-mas. I don't see people using Easter style decorations at Pesach. Its a different issue.


There is an inyan on Chanukah to publicize the miracle so Chabad puts giant menorahs on cars and in public places.
The Rockland kosher delivery truck is decorated and Evergreen has a huge menorah.
I do see a difference between that and putting up X-mas decorations in silver and blue. I guess that we have to make clear that we are celebrating Chanukah rather than imitating X-mas and that gifts have a spiritual side such as Jewish books, games and toys. Of course, school is out and kids need something to do and many places either close for Xmas or are extremely crowded so a trip to the toy store could satisfy the need for something to do.

I see just as much commercialization of Purim, if not more. We have imamother thread wars between those who do elaborate themes costing thousands and those who want to give most people on the list tzedukah cards. Somewhere between the two extremes was what our sages of olde had in mind.
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 8:58 am
Peer pressure causes things that were meant to be fun and optional, like Purim themes and Chanukah decorations, into sources of stress.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 10:11 am
I had a pretty mind-boggling conversation with a friend last year. She asked what our kids get for Chanukah, so I told her we don't do gifts, only gelt. $1 on night one, $2 on night two, etc., amounting to a whopping $36 per child by Chanukah's end. I say whopping because that's more than I ever got as a kid, and our kids don't buy anything, so that's a lot of money IMO. Her response: "Your kids don't complain that that's all they get?? My kids would scream and tantrum uncontrollably if they got so little. Besides for the presents every night that they get from us, they each get $200 from each set of grandparents to spend on toys."

That's $400 just for toys! If my kids' grandparents gave them that much, they'd get a small amount to spend and the rest would go into savings. And we would certainly not abide by such a terrible display of manners. (These are my personal thoughts, unspoken to her.) I told her that we try to focus on what we can give to others and so our kids bring holiday cheer to others in the form of visits, menorah and goody deliveries to people who are homebound, etc.

Her response to that was, "Well, you have such good kids. I want my kids to grow up to be mentsches. If only I had your kids, things would probably be different."

?!?!?!?!?! Hello??? It's not like G-d just dropped "good" kids out of the sky and they happened to land in our laps! Our kids struggle just like all people do, but it is our duty as parents to work with them and develop good habits and character traits. And newsflash- the only reason her (not little) children still behave like this is because it gets them what they want. Case in point: A couple weeks ago, one of my kids asked if they could have a cookie. I said "Not now. Why don't you save it for later to have for dessert after dinner?" She overheard and said, "Wow, your kids just accept these things so nicely. If I told my kid no, he'd be on the ground now, kicking and screaming, having thrown everything off the table." Well, yes, he does that because it has worked for him until now.

I know this is a total tangent at this point! But I do think we can influence (and in a sense, train) our kids to value what is truly important. That, despite peer pressure. I don't live in a very religious community, so what I mainly see is people who are celebrating 2 holidays and end up conflating the 2. There are a lot of trees with Stars of David on the top and Elves on shelves with Menorahs. So because the one is exciting, the parents need to make the other as exciting as well but often skip over the entire meaning.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 10:36 am
chanatron1000 wrote:
Peer pressure causes things that were meant to be fun and optional, like Purim themes and Chanukah decorations, into sources of stress.


To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, no one can peer pressure you without your consent. If you truly believe whatever you believe, you will resist that pressure and do your own thing. It takes courage to buck the tide, yes, but the tide becomes the tide only because too many people not only lack the courage of their convictions but lack convictions, period. Their guiding principle is to be considered “in” “with-it” “au courant” “fashionable” etc. G-d forbid they’re shouldn’t have or do what “everyone else” has or does.

There will always be people who have to one-up everyone. If you spend $10, they’ll spend $20; if you have a five-room house, they’ll build one twice the size, and if you give a bottle of Sabra and a twelve-inch cheesecake for MM, they’ll give a bigger bottle of Sabra, an 18- inch caramel-topped, almond-studded, praline-crusted, marzipan-layered cheesecake on a silver-plated platter that converts to a Megillah case after the cake is gone. If you’re a fool, you’ll fall into the gaavah trap and next year hire a trio of popular Jewish singers to deliver your MM ( a half pound of Russian caviar, a bottle of 25-year-old Scotch whiskey, and a chocolate ganache-topped cake soaked in cherry liqueur and embellished with one full ounce of 24-karat edible gold leaf ) and serenade each recipient with a rousing rendition of Shoshanat Yaakov in three-part harmony.
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 10:59 am
There are very real social consequences for not fitting in.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:01 am
The problem is, at some point someone has to take responsibility to say - it ends here.

Here is what I'm doing.

BH we can afford presents, so I have a choice.

This year we gave a special toy for a family present, and my parents are also giving a small thing to each child. Last year I didn't give anything, and my oldest said "mommy why did my friends get presents and not me?" So I realized we have to give.

So this year we are baking. We made latkes, which the kids love. We danced and sang songs and told the story. I'll try to make donuts w the kids, and cookies, and popcorn - fun experiences.

My kids can't play dreidel yet, but I spun it for them and gave out chocolate coins.

I did not decorate the house at all, nor did I wrap any gifts - to me it smacks of Xmas- but I'm trying to show that without spending money, we can have a special time and have fun.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:03 am
Note, my kids are young and not in a standard yeshivish day school. Things will change, I'm trying year by year to figure out a healthy compromise. We don't want to lose the spirit in the materialism.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:06 am
I decorate the house with my kids projects. I love hanging them up, they work so hard. We make latkes, decorate cookies, dance until we get dizzy, have one night of presents that’s a huge mess, and just enjoy ourselves. We’re not invited to any parties. We make our own one night just for us. We only have one set of grandparents and they aren’t close enough to go to. We enjoy Chanukah our way. And we love it.
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:18 am
zaq wrote:
To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, no one can peer pressure you without your consent. If you truly believe whatever you believe, you will resist that pressure and do your own thing. It takes courage to buck the tide, yes, but the tide becomes the tide only because too many people not only lack the courage of their convictions but lack convictions, period.

The problem is that most people suffer from imposter syndrome and look to everyone else to see what they should be doing.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:19 am
zaq wrote:
To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, no one can peer pressure you without your consent. If you truly believe whatever you believe, you will resist that pressure and do your own thing. It takes courage to buck the tide, yes, but the tide becomes the tide only because too many people not only lack the courage of their convictions but lack convictions, period. Their guiding principle is to be considered “in” “with-it” “au courant” “fashionable” etc. G-d forbid they’re shouldn’t have or do what “everyone else” has or does.

There will always be people who have to one-up everyone. If you spend $10, they’ll spend $20; if you have a five-room house, they’ll build one twice the size, and if you give a bottle of Sabra and a twelve-inch cheesecake for MM, they’ll give a bigger bottle of Sabra, an 18- inch caramel-topped, almond-studded, praline-crusted, marzipan-layered cheesecake on a silver-plated platter that converts to a Megillah case after the cake is gone. If you’re a fool, you’ll fall into the gaavah trap and next year hire a trio of popular Jewish singers to deliver your MM ( a half pound of Russian caviar, a bottle of 25-year-old Scotch whiskey, and a chocolate ganache-topped cake soaked in cherry liqueur and embellished with one full ounce of 24-karat edible gold leaf ) and serenade each recipient with a rousing rendition of Shoshanat Yaakov in three-part harmony.


יש בידו מנה מתאוה מאתים
אין אדם מת וחצי תאותו בידו

It's a big nisayon. It's an even bigger one when your kids are pushing you, they're suffering socially, and you're standing on principle.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:25 am
chanatron1000 wrote:
There are very real social consequences for not fitting in.
Not fitting in has NOTHING to do with buying gifts on chanukah or not decoratingike crazy on chanukah.
Those things have no consequences if not done.
And if they do, well then society has gone off the deep end.
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:29 am
amother [ Aqua ] wrote:
יש בידו מנה מתאוה מאתים
אין אדם מת וחצי תאותו בידו

It's a big nisayon. It's an even bigger one when your kids are pushing you, they're suffering socially, and you're standing on principle.

Yes. This is the part I find challenging . I don’t bow to peer pressure . However when my kid does bow to peer pressure that’s when I need to start making changes so that my child will do well socially. It’s not about the adults feeling the peer pressure (though I’m sure there are plenty who do) . It’s more about the teenagers I’m worried about. And it’s hard to know how to balance that.
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:29 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Not fitting in has NOTHING to do with buying gifts on chanukah or not decoratingike crazy on chanukah.
Those things have no consequences if not done.
And if they do, well then society has gone off the deep end.

It matters in some circles. Some parts of society have gone off the deep end.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:32 am
chanatron1000 wrote:
It matters in some circles. Some parts of society have gone off the deep end.
im sorry but are you saying that buying gifts and decorating (those were the exampkes given) matter in some circles, and if not done, those families are, what, looked down on?
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:43 am
The peer pressure regarding presents mostly affects children. Children do look down on other children for silly reasons.
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yidishmamma




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 12:00 pm
chanatron1000 wrote:
Peer pressure causes things that were meant to be fun and optional, like Purim themes and Chanukah decorations, into sources of stress.


And don’t forget about Instagram
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 12:11 pm
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
I had a pretty mind-boggling conversation with a friend last year. She asked what our kids get for Chanukah, so I told her we don't do gifts, only gelt. $1 on night one, $2 on night two, etc., amounting to a whopping $36 per child by Chanukah's end. I say whopping because that's more than I ever got as a kid, and our kids don't buy anything, so that's a lot of money IMO. Her response: "Your kids don't complain that that's all they get?? My kids would scream and tantrum uncontrollably if they got so little. Besides for the presents every night that they get from us, they each get $200 from each set of grandparents to spend on toys."

That's $400 just for toys! If my kids' grandparents gave them that much, they'd get a small amount to spend and the rest would go into savings. And we would certainly not abide by such a terrible display of manners. (These are my personal thoughts, unspoken to her.) I told her that we try to focus on what we can give to others and so our kids bring holiday cheer to others in the form of visits, menorah and goody deliveries to people who are homebound, etc.

Her response to that was, "Well, you have such good kids. I want my kids to grow up to be mentsches. If only I had your kids, things would probably be different."

?!?!?!?!?! Hello??? It's not like G-d just dropped "good" kids out of the sky and they happened to land in our laps! Our kids struggle just like all people do, but it is our duty as parents to work with them and develop good habits and character traits. And newsflash- the only reason her (not little) children still behave like this is because it gets them what they want. Case in point: A couple weeks ago, one of my kids asked if they could have a cookie. I said "Not now. Why don't you save it for later to have for dessert after dinner?" She overheard and said, "Wow, your kids just accept these things so nicely. If I told my kid no, he'd be on the ground now, kicking and screaming, having thrown everything off the table." Well, yes, he does that because it has worked for him until now.

I know this is a total tangent at this point! But I do think we can influence (and in a sense, train) our kids to value what is truly important. That, despite peer pressure. I don't live in a very religious community, so what I mainly see is people who are celebrating 2 holidays and end up conflating the 2. There are a lot of trees with Stars of David on the top and Elves on shelves with Menorahs. So because the one is exciting, the parents need to make the other as exciting as well but often skip over the entire meaning.


You sound like a really good parent!

FTR, each of my kids' gifts cost less than $36 that your kids get. As I said, my kids wouldn't know what to do with money like that; they appreciate "things" rather than cash and have no concept of how much things cost.
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Studious




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 12:20 pm
While much of what is going on may be materialistic, some of it seems to me to be connected to creativity, energy and time. I don't do all the shtik because I work crazy lawyer hours and am rather wiped out when I get home. I do try to buy some nice sufganiyot at the bakery next to work (which unfortunately was just closed down...). I look at other people who go all out with a mixture of envy and astonishment.
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 12:41 pm
pause wrote:
As I said, my kids wouldn't know what to do with money like that; they appreciate "things" rather than cash and have no concept of how much things cost.

I personally think that if someone wants to give large amounts of cash to young kids, a better gift is to invest most of it on their behalf.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 12:50 pm
Not to take away from your point, but I really dislike when BTs put frum people on a pedestal and expect them to shun materialism because that’s one of the things that drew them to religion. We’re just regular normal people who are finding our way, and yes some of us are more materialistic than others, but we didn’t ask to be idealized.
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