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Anyone going to start daf yomi?
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:19 pm
Also, the "Bruriah incident" reflects more poorly on her husband than on Bruriah herself.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:25 pm
chicco wrote:
I am well aware of her end, and the questions about that actual Rashi. Some people think he didn't write it. In either case, does her tragic one mistake discount the fact that she was recognized as a Torah sage?

What about Devora Hashofetes? No hidden skeletons there.


First of all, it’s more worthy in my eyes to not learn Gemara than to arbitrarily decide that a Rashi was written by some else because we don’t like what it says.

Either way, of course there were women who learned. But they were few and far between. Do you put on Tefilin because Rashi’s daughters did? If you want to learn, go ahead. I understand that people enjoy the intellectual stimulation. And the attainment of something that was basically not permitted to them for centuries. It’s just laughable to do it because you’re comparing yourself to Bruiah and Devora. And shame on anyone for thinking that learning Gemara will make her a better Jew than her grandmother.


Last edited by malki2 on Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:27 pm
malki2 wrote:
First of all, it’s more worthy in my eyes to not learn Gemara than to arbitrarily decide that a Rashi was written by some else because we don’t like what it says.

Either way, of course there were women who learned. But they were few and far between. Do you put on Tefilin because Rashi’s daughters did? If you want to learn, go ahead. I understand that people enjoy the intellectual stimulation. And the attainment of something that was basically not permitted to them for centuries. It’s just laughable to do it because you’re comparing yourself to Bruiah and Devora.


Why don't you discuss this in the debate thread that I started (for you)?

This is a support and resource thread for women who want to learn Daf Yomi.

I can't imagine that you can possibly frame what you are doing in this thread as a mitzvah
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:31 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Why don't you discuss this in the debate thread that I started (for you)?

This is a support and resource thread for women who want to learn Daf Yomi.

I can't imagine that you can possibly frame what you are doing in this thread as a mitzvah


Because I was responding to people who think that learning Gemara will make them better Jews than their grandmothers. And it’s certainly a mitzvah to discount this attitude.
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:48 pm
Joy can you post a link to that thread please? I apologize for going off topic here.

To answer the OP, kol hakavod. I did not have any plans to start, but my father (a tremendous talmud chachum) and I had a discussion that struck a chord with me. He was debating starting the daf this cycle. He has completed it before (I don't know how many times). He felt that on the one hand, the daf isn't enough learning of the actual daf, and he already has several other intense sedarim during the day. On the other hand, he said, all of klal yisroel is learning that every day, how can I not be a part of it?

I figured you know, maybe I could do something light too to be involved with something much of klal yisroel is busy with. The unexpected upside is now my husband and I have something else to bond over. Both he and I enjoy that we can discuss this. I've learned gemara in the past, both with my father and on my own as sources for the Torah classes that I teach. I'm happy to get a better background. That being said, it is not for everyone, but that should be their individual choice.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:52 pm
malki2 wrote:
Because I was responding to people who think that learning Gemara will make them better Jews than their grandmothers. And it’s certainly a mitzvah to discount this attitude.


What you are doing is harassing Jewish women who sincerely wish to learn Torah. That is hardly a mitzvah.

If the grandmother argument held any weight at all, you'd be using it all over on the Chinuch forum whenever anyone talks about getting their daughters into Bais Yaakov. You're not, so please leave these women alone. If you wish, read the posts. Read about the wonderful women, like amother fuchsia, who are moseret nefesh in order to bring more Torah into their home. You are not bringing more Torah into the world by posting in this thread. They are, by what they are doing. You know that.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 5:54 pm
chicco wrote:
Joy can you post a link to that thread please? I apologize for going off topic here.

To answer the OP, kol hakavod. I did not have any plans to start, but my father (a tremendous talmud chachum) and I had a discussion that struck a chord with me. He was debating starting the daf this cycle. He has completed it before (I don't know how many times). He felt that on the one hand, the daf isn't enough learning of the actual daf, and he already has several other intense sedarim during the day. On the other hand, he said, all of klal yisroel is learning that every day, how can I not be a part of it?

I figured you know, maybe I could do something light too to be involved with something much of klal yisroel is busy with. The unexpected upside is now my husband and I have something else to bond over. Both he and I enjoy that we can discuss this. I've learned gemara in the past, both with my father and on my own as sources for the Torah classes that I teach. I'm happy to get a better background. That being said, it is not for everyone, but that should be their individual choice.


Here is the link to the debate thread: https://www.imamother.com/foru.....79327
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 6:01 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
What you are doing is harassing Jewish women who sincerely wish to learn Torah. That is hardly a mitzvah.

If the grandmother argument held any weight at all, you'd be using it all over on the Chinuch forum whenever anyone talks about getting their daughters into Bais Yaakov. You're not, so please leave these women alone. If you wish, read the posts. Read about the wonderful women, like amother fuchsia, who are moseret nefesh in order to bring more Torah into their home. You are not bringing more Torah into the world by posting in this thread. They are, by what they are doing. You know that.


Look. We are obviously coming from 2 different places hashkafically. I have a right to make my point just as you have a right to make yours. I respect you and the other like-minded women on this forum and I do not expect you or them to do anything different than you were planning on doing. As I have said before, more power to you all. But there is another side to the coin, and are women here who share my hashkafos as well, although they may not always be as vocal. So please allow me to voice my valid opinions here, and give me the same respect that you would like to have for yourself.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 6:32 pm
malki2 wrote:
Look. We are obviously coming from 2 different places hashkafically. I have a right to make my point just as you have a right to make yours. I respect you and the other like-minded women on this forum and I do not expect you or them to do anything different than you were planning on doing. As I have said before, more power to you all. But there is another side to the coin, and are women here who share my hashkafos as well, although they may not always be as vocal. So please allow me to voice my valid opinions here, and give me the same respect that you would like to have for yourself.


Malki....WADR... please express your opinions and thoughts on the debate thread
This is a CHIZUK thread, not a my haskofa vs yours thread...

Thank you kindly
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 6:39 pm
chicco wrote:
Also, the "Bruriah incident" reflects more poorly on her husband than on Bruriah herself.


IMHO, a prerequisite to learning Gemara should be integration of the dictum:
אם הראשונים כמלאכים, אנו כבני אדם. אם הראשונים כבני אדם אנו כחמורים.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 6:53 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Malki....WADR... please express your opinions and thoughts on the debate thread
This is a CHIZUK thread, not a my haskofa vs yours thread...

Thank you kindly


Exactly. Malki2, I realize you may not be familiar with board etiquette, but in general, it’s really not right to repeatedly introduce debate into a support thread. It’s certainly not right to harass and insult the women posting on a support thread.

There’s a debate thread that’s separate from the support thread for this reason.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 11:00 pm
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
Um.

Ok that's horrible. ?


My point in posting this story was that this woman went to hear Torah lectures. And I'm guessing he wasn't only lecturing on Tanach??? So obviously women DID learn in the olden days.

And she wasn't censured for not listening to her husband and going even without his consent, which quite honestly, I found surprising. So all around, this was an ironic story.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 11:02 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Really? Learned women who've never learned gemara won't have a deep understanding of our religion?


Do you realize how much of what you know about Yiddishkeit actually comes from the gemarah? Do you know how many times I'm thinking of a story to illustrate a point and a story from the gemarah comes to mind? Of course, I heard it third hand, as a by the way...

So I'm thinking, why do I learn things third hand? Why don't I learn things first hand?
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 11:08 pm
malki2 wrote:
I will tell you that your great great grandmother with her Emunah Peshuta, who may even have been illiterate, had a much deeper understanding of our religion than you will ever have.


I responded only partially to this earlier...

I explained this on the S/O thread, but I'll paste it here:

"What's interesting to me is that the reasons Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik gives for women learning Gemarah nowadays are very similar to the ones I have heard the Litvish schools explaining why we learn inside at all - the fact that the world has changed and women are learning secular studies on a more intellectual level, the fact that women have more time today, the fact women have lost their own mesorah... A quote from Rabbi Soloveitchik from the book written by David Holzer - ".. the main bulk of her knowledge she absorbed by osmosis. Jewish houses were full of knowledge. All you had to do was open your mouth, and drink it down. But now the Jewish home is not knowledgeable - and I mean the Orthodox. The intuition, the feeling, the experience is missing..."

The reason Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik gave for allowing women to learn was this, sort of what you stated (he didn't say that our grandmothers were illiterate, HIS grandmother certainly wasn't). That our grandmothers were extremely knowledgeable, they got this knowledge by osmosis just by living where they did, but we don't have this anymore. That's why we have to learn. And TBH, that's the rationale for allowing the Bais Yaakov movement as well.

ETA: I remember my grandmother, a woman who was born in Poland at the turn of the century. Honestly, she knew almost nothing. Which was NOT a good thing.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 11:13 pm
malki2 wrote:
Look. We are obviously coming from 2 different places hashkafically. I have a right to make my point just as you have a right to make yours. I respect you and the other like-minded women on this forum and I do not expect you or them to do anything different than you were planning on doing. As I have said before, more power to you all. But there is another side to the coin, and are women here who share my hashkafos as well, although they may not always be as vocal. So please allow me to voice my valid opinions here, and give me the same respect that you would like to have for yourself.


Malki2, according to your hashkafah (which hashkafah is that, btw?) how are women able to learn meforshim on chumash and navi? When the meforshim come from the gemarah? And how come I hear women - in my world, who share my hashkafah - quoting gemarahs right and left? DO we learn gemarah or DON'T we learn gemarah? Or are we only allowed to learn gemarah from photocopied papers?
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amother




Pearl
 

Post Wed, Jan 08 2020, 11:47 pm
malki2 wrote:
I will tell you that your great great grandmother with her Emunah Peshuta, who may even have been illiterate, had a much deeper understanding of our religion than you will ever have.

What if I'm descended from women who wore tzitzit and learned Gemara?
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ectomorph




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 09 2020, 12:02 am
I'm Going to learn daf yomi. After I daven a full davening 3x a day, and learn parsha and halacha daily, it would be a nice addition.

All women learning daf yomi, make sure you daven and say birchas hatorah.

It's not an intellectual exercise. Torah creates reality and is not defined by it.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 09 2020, 12:21 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Malki2, according to your hashkafah (which hashkafah is that, btw?) how are women able to learn meforshim on chumash and navi? When the meforshim come from the gemarah? And how come I hear women - in my world, who share my hashkafah - quoting gemarahs right and left? DO we learn gemarah or DON'T we learn gemarah? Or are we only allowed to learn gemarah from photocopied papers?


I was told not to post anymore on this thread, but I’ll answer this question as it was posed directly to me. I don’t believe that it’s the content of the Gemara that is the issue per se, because as you said, no one has an issue with meforshim which are all based on Torah shebe’al peh, and women in your world quote Gemaras right and left, and I could include myself in this as well. What I believe the issue to be is the analytical aspect of the Gemara which in a way is somewhat incongruous to the mechanics of the female mind which was the point of contention between Rabbi Meir and Bruriah. I know that this doesn’t sound very feministic and will likely not take this debate into a better place, but it’s my answer nonetheless.
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amother




Ecru
 

Post Thu, Jan 09 2020, 12:25 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
My point in posting this story was that this woman went to hear Torah lectures. And I'm guessing he wasn't only lecturing on Tanach??? So obviously women DID learn in the olden days.

And she wasn't censured for not listening to her husband and going even without his consent, which quite honestly, I found surprising. So all around, this was an ironic story.


Ok, thanks for explaining. Ironic is a good word.
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amother




Ecru
 

Post Thu, Jan 09 2020, 12:41 am
malki2 wrote:
I will tell you that your great great grandmother with her Emunah Peshuta, who may even have been illiterate, had a much deeper understanding of our religion than you will ever have.


I hate when people romanticize the alter heim. Sure, some people had emunah pshuta. But many, MANY were completely miserable. While it's true they lived in abject poverty and were persecuted for being Jews, they also lacked the buffer of education and therefore, the minute they were able to leave, or their children were, they did. Our current otd crisis doesn't hold a candle to the numbers that we lost 2-3 generations ago due to intermarriage. And imo, lack of a Torah education was a primary factor.
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