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Anyone going to start daf yomi?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 10:28 am
Aylat wrote:
Malki2, this quote is from Brachot 5b that we just learned on Wednesday. So appropriate that you quoted it here!


Aylat , my theory is that malki2 is doing Daf Yomi along with us and was just testing us to see if we were really following. Wink

Likewise PinkFridge, who was recently discussing יפשפש במעשיו, also in Daf ה.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 10:37 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Aylat , my theory is that malki2 is doing Daf Yomi along with us and was just testing us to see if we were really following. Wink

Likewise PinkFridge, who was recently discussing יפשפש במעשיו, also in Daf ה.


I think malki2 and PinkFridge just illustrated my point Wink .
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 10:40 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Aylat , my theory is that malki2 is doing Daf Yomi along with us and was just testing us to see if we were really following. Wink

Likewise PinkFridge, who was recently discussing יפשפש במעשיו, also in Daf ה.


Pretty funny. Actually, I think that I just recalled it from the previous cycle. Whistling
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 10:42 am
ectomorph wrote:
I'm Going to learn daf yomi. After I daven a full davening 3x a day, and learn parsha and halacha daily, it would be a nice addition.

All women learning daf yomi, make sure you daven and say birchas hatorah.

It's not an intellectual exercise. Torah creates reality and is not defined by it.


You know ectomorph, the same poskim who forbid women to learn gemarah are also not makpid on women davening three times a day. And it certainly says nowhere that women must learn parsha and halacha every day.

I'm not sure why so many feel the need to make fun of this.

If you have no interest in learning gemarah, good for you! Why spoil the party for everyone else.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 10:44 am
malki2 wrote:
Pretty funny. Actually, I think that I just recalled it from the previous cycle. Whistling


Whether you’re doing Daf Yomi now or did it in the previous cycle, you’re just as “bad” as all of us who are doing Daf Yomi! יישר כוחך!
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 10:44 am
PinkFridge wrote:
You are replying to my questioning the assertion that without learning gemara women won't have a deep understanding of our religion. I don't remember who asserted that.
The way I understood it is, without learning gemara, we only have a superficial Yiddishkeit. That might not be what the poster meant, but that's how it comes across.


But it's true.

There's no way to understand Torah Shebichsav without Torah Shebaal peh.

I was recently listening to a navi shiur - on a topic that I had previously learned in school - and I was surprised at how different the entire story was when the relevant gemarahs were brought into the picture.

You don't realize how often you quote gemarah, use gemarah, in your understanding of Yiddishkeit.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 11:03 am
malki2 wrote:
I was told not to post anymore on this thread, but I’ll answer this question as it was posed directly to me. I don’t believe that it’s the content of the Gemara that is the issue per se, because as you said, no one has an issue with meforshim which are all based on Torah shebe’al peh, and women in your world quote Gemaras right and left, and I could include myself in this as well. What I believe the issue to be is the analytical aspect of the Gemara which in a way is somewhat incongruous to the mechanics of the female mind which was the point of contention between Rabbi Meir and Bruriah. I know that this doesn’t sound very feministic and will likely not take this debate into a better place, but it’s my answer nonetheless.


Do you really believe the bolded?

I read through the sources for women learning or not learning and I never actually saw this reason, but if you say so...

Do you include yourself when you say that the analytical aspect of gemarah is somewhat incongruous to the mechanics of the female mind? And I'm curious why you feel that way? Or rather, what data do you have to back that up???
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Jan 10 2020, 11:31 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Do you really believe the bolded?

I read through the sources for women learning or not learning and I never actually saw this reason, but if you say so...

Do you include yourself when you say that the analytical aspect of gemarah is somewhat incongruous to the mechanics of the female mind? And I'm curious why you feel that way? Or rather, what data do you have to back that up???


I addressed this in the debate thread, where it belongs.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 9:36 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
But it's true.

There's no way to understand Torah Shebichsav without Torah Shebaal peh.

I was recently listening to a navi shiur - on a topic that I had previously learned in school - and I was surprised at how different the entire story was when the relevant gemarahs were brought into the picture.

You don't realize how often you quote gemarah, use gemarah, in your understanding of Yiddishkeit.


Since the debate thread is closed, I hope you don't mind my cutting and pasting our discussion on that thread:

PinkFridge wrote:
I'm not going to dis the daf. When my husband briefly did it he went to a shiur, and listened to a few more because he wanted to own it. No dabbling there.

What you mean is, it's not going to be the greatest depth, it's not going to be the same type of in depth of Rashi Tosfos, other rishonim and beyond who really tackle the sugya. But the learning is still powerful. And there are magidei shiur who do masterful jobs, the local ones we might never hear of and the big names like Rabbi Rosner, Rabbi Lebowitz (mentioned by Yonoson Rosenblum the other week), Rabbi Sorscher, and some others. I'm sure women reading this are nodding their heads, even if they have other names in mind, and men who would read this would too. I respect the time and yes, effort put in to the daf too much to reduce it to dabbling. Surely not the type of dabbling I would do
Smile

To which Mommyg8 replied:
Right. That's why I think that daf yomi is actually great for women like me, who DON'T have the background (or frankly the time) to learn through the whole thing - Rashi, Tosfos, Rishonim, Acharonim.

I don't plan on doing daf yomi as it's too much of a time commitment (at least not this cycle) but I like the idea of learning through the daf yomi shiurim at my own pace.

At the very least, it will give context to me as to all the gemarahs we're all quoting Smile .

I think Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik was right on this point - after going to college and being trained to go to sources and cite extensively, I'm finding this third hand (the gemarah says this or that) very hard to swallow. Blame my college education
Smile.

What I would have said there had the thread not been locked, and I'll say it here because I don't think it's inflammatory at all: Yesterday I listened to the OU Nach Yomi. Thanks for the heads up, whoever mentioned it. After listening though I realized, if I'm going to do this right, I think I want to quickly read the perek first.

Just to quell any rumors, no, I'm not doing the daf. Baruch shekivanti though. I just don't even know how I would do the daf to give it minimal justice. Even if I had the skills to read the Aramaic, surely I wouldn't understand anything without reading the basic commentaries. Unless I'd just totally rely on the English Artscroll. I think that if I were learning it seriously, like serious quality yeshiva learning, I'd gravitate to Rashi Tosfos basic pshat, not lomdus. And I'd want to own it myself.

Sorry, I'm rambling here. I can't organize my thoughts enough to do a spinoff now, have to run, and I do think I'm bringing up some constructive thoughts.

Gut voch, y'all.

ETA: I'm really enjoying hearing all the voices here. And in the interest of the enemy is the perfect of the good, I would still listen to the day's nach perek even if I couldn't learn the perek inside. Which leads me to some more thoughts, for which I'll start a separate post.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:23 am
I wouldn't say that one isn't learning the daf (or daily Nach perek) if one is just listening to a shiur and not learning inside. But this leads me to ask a question. I supposed I could do a poll but I don't think that's necessary for a meaningful discussion.

Here goes: When you learn, what is your goal?
- To be exposed to the thrust of each daf, I.e the concepts?
- To actually learn it?
- To be able to learn it independently?
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:03 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Since the debate thread is closed, I hope you don't mind my cutting and pasting our discussion on that thread:

PinkFridge wrote:
I'm not going to dis the daf. When my husband briefly did it he went to a shiur, and listened to a few more because he wanted to own it. No dabbling there.

What you mean is, it's not going to be the greatest depth, it's not going to be the same type of in depth of Rashi Tosfos, other rishonim and beyond who really tackle the sugya. But the learning is still powerful. And there are magidei shiur who do masterful jobs, the local ones we might never hear of and the big names like Rabbi Rosner, Rabbi Lebowitz (mentioned by Yonoson Rosenblum the other week), Rabbi Sorscher, and some others. I'm sure women reading this are nodding their heads, even if they have other names in mind, and men who would read this would too. I respect the time and yes, effort put in to the daf too much to reduce it to dabbling. Surely not the type of dabbling I would do
Smile

To which Mommyg8 replied:
Right. That's why I think that daf yomi is actually great for women like me, who DON'T have the background (or frankly the time) to learn through the whole thing - Rashi, Tosfos, Rishonim, Acharonim.

I don't plan on doing daf yomi as it's too much of a time commitment (at least not this cycle) but I like the idea of learning through the daf yomi shiurim at my own pace.

At the very least, it will give context to me as to all the gemarahs we're all quoting Smile .

I think Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik was right on this point - after going to college and being trained to go to sources and cite extensively, I'm finding this third hand (the gemarah says this or that) very hard to swallow. Blame my college education
Smile.

What I would have said there had the thread not been locked, and I'll say it here because I don't think it's inflammatory at all: Yesterday I listened to the OU Nach Yomi. Thanks for the heads up, whoever mentioned it. After listening though I realized, if I'm going to do this right, I think I want to quickly read the perek first.

Just to quell any rumors, no, I'm not doing the daf. Baruch shekivanti though. I just don't even know how I would do the daf to give it minimal justice. Even if I had the skills to read the Aramaic, surely I wouldn't understand anything without reading the basic commentaries. Unless I'd just totally rely on the English Artscroll. I think that if I were learning it seriously, like serious quality yeshiva learning, I'd gravitate to Rashi Tosfos basic pshat, not lomdus. And I'd want to own it myself.

Sorry, I'm rambling here. I can't organize my thoughts enough to do a spinoff now, have to run, and I do think I'm bringing up some constructive thoughts.

Gut voch, y'all.

ETA: I'm really enjoying hearing all the voices here. And in the interest of the enemy is the perfect of the good, I would still listen to the day's nach perek even if I couldn't learn the perek inside. Which leads me to some more thoughts, for which I'll start a separate post.


Since you quoted me....

I'm not sure why the other thread got locked. Maybe someone thought I was coming from the MO perspective, but I'm not MO at all, I'm a yeshivish woman in a yeshivish family.

To answer the bolded - totally I would rely on Artscroll. And shiurim. And I think I've said this before - my text skills in tanach are not that great either. SO either way, whether learning tanach, or gemarah, there would a steep learning curve. Not to mention that I'm older now and older brains have a harder time learning new things...

If you're asking me what type of learning I would gravitate to... honestly I don't know. I thought I would be ok with Daf Yomi but I've looked into it a bit and now I'm not sure. At the end of the day, everyone agrees that women don't have a chiyuv, so whatever I do... will be the same. It's ok if I learn it with Artscroll, it's ok if I learn it with shiurim, it's ok.... I am definitely not following the Daf Yomi calendar, as I think that's extremely unrealistic for someone with my life responsibilities. But...

Like you, I'm just thinking out loud so....
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:08 am
And I would like a retraction from those women who said that women can't learn gemarah because they don't have the brains for it.

It's beyond me that in this day and age, when women have seriously shown they can be anything a man can be (brain-wise) that women on this site still think that men are smarter than women. Seriously?

It's true that men are generally MUCH stronger than women. But IQ wise, there are some differences in distribution but not significant differences otherwise - certainly not as significant as the differences in physical strength. Look this up.

And the next question - for those who say that yeshivish mesorah is to not allow women to learn oral law, can you explain Bais Yaakov? BJJ? Bnos Sarah? Or are all these schools and seminaries not yeshivish?
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:11 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
And I would like a retraction from those women who said that women can't learn gemarah because they don't have the brains for it.

It's beyond me that in this day and age, when women have seriously shown they can be anything a man can be (brain-wise) that women on this site still think that men are smarter than women. Seriously?

It's true that men are generally MUCH stronger than women. But IQ wise, there are some differences in distribution but not significant differences otherwise - certainly not as significant as the differences in physical strength. Look this up.

And the next question - for those who say that yeshivish mesorah is to not allow women to learn oral law, can you explain Bais Yaakov? BJJ? Bnos Sarah? Or are all these schools and seminaries not yeshivish?


It wasn’t “better” or “smarter”. It was “different”. Do you disagree with the distinctions made by Chazal of Bina Yeseira and Daatan Kalos? Were they just male chauvinists? And what do you need a retraction for, exactly? People can’t have different opinions? There’s a ton of scientific evidence and literature in both directions. And either way, we’re talking generalities, not specifics, so no one needs to be personally insulted.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 2:25 pm
malki2 wrote:
It wasn’t “better” or “smarter”. It was “different”. Do you disagree with the distinctions made by Chazal of Bina Yeseira and Daatan Kalos? Were they just male chauvinists? And what do you need a retraction for, exactly? People can’t have different opinions? There’s a ton of scientific evidence and literature in both directions. And either way, we’re talking generalities, not specifics, so no one needs to be personally insulted.


No, you said "better" and "smarter". You said - quote:

"What I believe the issue to be is the analytical aspect of the Gemara which in a way is somewhat incongruous to the mechanics of the female mind."

What exactly is that supposed to mean? That we don't have the capacity to understand the complex analytical aspects of Gemarah?

And you said - men are generally better than women at math, as you have discovered when you taught both boys and girls - and even if this were true, again, what relevance would this have to gemarah? And there is more than one way to measure IQ - is not verbal IQ also a type of intelligence?

You mention bina yeseira and daatan Kalos - what do they mean and what relevance do they have to analytical gemarah skills?

We can definitely have different opinions. I'm just trying to clarify what your opinion is.

And again, which mesorah is this that you keep referring to, that women can't learn gemarah?
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:13 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
No, you said "better" and "smarter". You said - quote:

"What I believe the issue to be is the analytical aspect of the Gemara which in a way is somewhat incongruous to the mechanics of the female mind."

What exactly is that supposed to mean? That we don't have the capacity to understand the complex analytical aspects of Gemarah?

And you said - men are generally better than women at math, as you have discovered when you taught both boys and girls - and even if this were true, again, what relevance would this have to gemarah? And there is more than one way to measure IQ - is not verbal IQ also a type of intelligence?

You mention bina yeseira and daatan Kalos - what do they mean and what relevance do they have to analytical gemarah skills?

We can definitely have different opinions. I'm just trying to clarify what your opinion is.

And again, which mesorah is this that you keep referring to, that women can't learn gemarah?


Excellent. Yes, I did intimate that men are generally better at math (/engineering) than women. But you are 100% correct that verbal intelligence is just as important. Honestly, I’m not saying that I know the reasons. What I do know is that women were generally discouraged from learning Gemara over the ages. And I have more respect for our Chachomim than to attribute that to male chauvinism (not saying that you personally didn’t). So my theory is that it is based on the concept of Melamda Tiflus, and that there was an understanding by Chazal that the mechanics of the female mind operated differently than those of the male mind, and that they were not suited for systematic Gemara learning. And again, I don’t profess to know the exact reason. But I do believe that their minds work differently. I definitely believe in Bina Yeseira/Daatan Kalos (and no, I don’t think daatan kalos means stupid). That’s my opinion/theory. You nor anyone else here does not have to agree with it. You are all entitled to your opinions. And yes, I have looked up Gemaras myself. And understood them.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:22 pm
I didn’t read all the replies. My husband has a strong learning background but then got burnt out. (Woke up vasikin as a bocher for about ten years and learned at least ten hours a day)

Now he’s in business and in his forties. He decided to do daf yomi and he does each page for about twenty minutes. Because he’s learned he’s able to grasp the page in that amount of time. But he doesn’t expound on it with a million mefarshim. For him this is a big step and I am proud of him.

He also tells it over to me in a nutshell and I happen to love it! I never knew how sweet and warm the Talmud is. It gives me great chizzuk and I literally soak up every word.
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amother




Cerise
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:23 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I wouldn't say that one isn't learning the daf (or daily Nach perek) if one is just listening to a shiur and not learning inside. But this leads me to ask a question. I supposed I could do a poll but I don't think that's necessary for a meaningful discussion.

Here goes: When you learn, what is your goal?
- To be exposed to the thrust of each daf, I.e the concepts?
- To actually learn it?
- To be able to learn it independently?


Here’s an idea: why don’t we first take a poll of every man attending a daf yomi shiur to make sure that HIS intentions are correct first? Or are only women supposed to have perfect and pure motives at all times?
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 4:15 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I wouldn't say that one isn't learning the daf (or daily Nach perek) if one is just listening to a shiur and not learning inside. But this leads me to ask a question. I supposed I could do a poll but I don't think that's necessary for a meaningful discussion.

Here goes: When you learn, what is your goal?
- To be exposed to the thrust of each daf, I.e the concepts?
- To actually learn it?
- To be able to learn it independently?


My goal is the bolded.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 4:34 pm
My goal is also to be exposed to.the thrust of what's in it. To know that wow that debate goes all the way back to the Gemara. I also have 5 men in my house incl DH who DO NOT learn (coz they haven't been to Yeshiva and don't see the importance of it (long story)). I feel like it might encourage them. (One son HAS learned a few pages with me from.this and says he wants to do more). It means I can say stuff like 'oh that's interesting because it says on today's daf
....' and bring more Torah conversation in to the house.

BTW I also learn Chumash/parsha, where my goal is more to improve my textual skills to be able to understand all.of the mefarshim on the page.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 4:40 pm
The other thread may have been locked because people were getting nasty and I asked for that to stop as I didn't want to be responsible for disunity in klal Yisrael (even though it wasn't my thread). Then Yael locked it.
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