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Anyone going to start daf yomi?
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 5:21 pm
malki2 wrote:
Excellent. Yes, I did intimate that men are generally better at math (/engineering) than women. But you are 100% correct that verbal intelligence is just as important. Honestly, I’m not saying that I know the reasons. What I do know is that women were generally discouraged from learning Gemara over the ages. And I have more respect for our Chachomim than to attribute that to male chauvinism (not saying that you personally didn’t). So my theory is that it is based on the concept of Melamda Tiflus, and that there was an understanding by Chazal that the mechanics of the female mind operated differently than those of the male mind, and that they were not suited for systematic Gemara learning. And again, I don’t profess to know the exact reason. But I do believe that their minds work differently. I definitely believe in Bina Yeseira/Daatan Kalos (and no, I don’t think daatan kalos means stupid). That’s my opinion/theory. You nor anyone else here does not have to agree with it. You are all entitled to your opinions. And yes, I have looked up Gemaras myself. And understood them.


For the 1000th time Malki ... why are you deliberately misquoting the Gam'

C.ilu melamda tiflus... Its like teaching her tiflus..... NOT MELAMDA TIFLUS
See Tosfos ON this point
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amother




Black
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 6:25 pm
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
Here’s an idea: why don’t we first take a poll of every man attending a daf yomi shiur to make sure that HIS intentions are correct first? Or are only women supposed to have perfect and pure motives at all times?


Because they have a mitzvah (chiyuv in fact) of limud Torah which women don't have. Simple as that.
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amother




Oak
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 6:29 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
Because they have a mitzvah (chiyuv in fact) of limud Torah which women don't have. Simple as that.


Women don’t have a chiyuv of Limud Torah, but they do have a mitzvah (for which they receive schar).
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 6:54 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
For the 1000th time Malki ... why are you deliberately misquoting the Gam'

C.ilu melamda tiflus... Its like teaching her tiflus..... NOT MELAMDA TIFLUS
See Tosfos ON this point


I was quoting the Mishna which was the source of the concept. But you are correct that the Gemara clarifies. So wherever I said Melamda Tiflus, you are free to add the “ke’ilu”. I don’t know why that makes such a difference though. When it says “ke’ilu Oveid Avoda Zara,” it’s still pretty bad. Not something to be proud of.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 7:16 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
And I would like a retraction from those women who said that women can't learn gemarah because they don't have the brains for it.

It's beyond me that in this day and age, when women have seriously shown they can be anything a man can be (brain-wise) that women on this site still think that men are smarter than women. Seriously?

It's true that men are generally MUCH stronger than women. But IQ wise, there are some differences in distribution but not significant differences otherwise - certainly not as significant as the differences in physical strength. Look this up.

And the next question - for those who say that yeshivish mesorah is to not allow women to learn oral law, can you explain Bais Yaakov? BJJ? Bnos Sarah? Or are all these schools and seminaries not yeshivish?


Of course we have the brains for it.
I don't know if I would use as proof that we've been exposed to so much gemara and Torah sheb'al peh e.g. through mefarshim. Because one distilled mishna or sugya isn't the same as learning gemara.
And as you might be seeing in your musings in your immediate pp, it's not the same as the nuts and bolts daf once we're faced with the black on white of it. But the fact that it's not the same, and it gives us pause as far as if we want to learn it or not doesn't mean that we don't have the brains for it.
Types the woman who learned a lot about tefillin last night and different shitos from various acharonim in Rabbi Reisman's shiur. Of course for me, the pay off was the hashkafa lessons. But I did find the first 3/4 invigorating and interesting.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 8:05 pm
malki2 wrote:
I was quoting the Mishna which was the source of the concept. But you are correct that the Gemara clarifies. So wherever I said Melamda Tiflus, you are free to add the “ke’ilu”. I don’t know why that makes such a difference though. When it says “ke’ilu Oveid Avoda Zara,” it’s still pretty bad. Not something to be proud of.


Obviously, you didn't see Tosfos or the Maharsha or R Akiva Eiger... Very Happy
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penguin




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 8:06 pm
BTW I was thinking of trying to translate the piece in the recent link about women who learned & taught, I believe one was the mother of R Akiva Eiger.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 9:19 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Obviously, you didn't see Tosfos or the Maharsha or R Akiva Eiger... Very Happy


Not sure which Tosfos you are referring to. The Tosfos on the top of 21b doesn’t sound like it advances your cause very much.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 9:48 pm
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
I didn’t read all the replies. My husband has a strong learning background but then got burnt out. (Woke up vasikin as a bocher for about ten years and learned at least ten hours a day)

Now he’s in business and in his forties. He decided to do daf yomi and he does each page for about twenty minutes. Because he’s learned he’s able to grasp the page in that amount of time. But he doesn’t expound on it with a million mefarshim. For him this is a big step and I am proud of him.

He also tells it over to me in a nutshell and I happen to love it! I never knew how sweet and warm the Talmud is. It gives me great chizzuk and I literally soak up every word.


Thumbs Up
It is such a bracha, in many ways, when one is animated by Torah, on whatever regular basis. May this lead to more and more and more.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 9:49 pm
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
Women don’t have a chiyuv of Limud Torah, but they do have a mitzvah (for which they receive schar).


Men get sechar for the ameilus. Women get sechar for learning Torah that will enhance their avodah. Which is broad enough to allow for all types of learning.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:00 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Men get sechar for the ameilus. Women get sechar for learning Torah that will enhance their avodah. Which is broad enough to allow for all types of learning.


That actually sounds like something that I might agree with.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:09 pm
malki2 wrote:
That actually sounds like something that I might agree with.


Wonderful! I didn't realize I was writing so much "disagreeable" stuff Wink
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:30 pm
The type of learning discussed in this thread doesnt fall under the category of tiflus...

The discussion above relates specifically to
teaching women Torah, and not to the study of
Torah by women on their own.
The Perishah (Yoreh De’ah 246:15) notes that
the wording of the Rambam refers specifically to
teaching Torah to women and not to self-study,
and that a woman who studies Torah receives
reward for it. In addition, the Rambam says that
most women are not intellectually capable of
study, implying that some women are capable
of such study.
Based on these observations, the Perishah
concludes that women who learn Torah on their
own have distinguished themselves from the
majority, and therefore earn reward (provided
they do not turn the words of Torah into
nonsense).
This does not mean, however, that women
should be encouraged to study Torah on their
own. A woman who decides to learn Torah of
her own accord is judged to be exceptional,
while one who does so because of external
encouragement, or because of social pressure,
will not enjoy this special status.
Rav Shach zt”l also writes that the restriction
against Torah study for women does not apply
to self-study (Avi Ezri, Talmud Torah 1:13).
In fact, the idea is already noted by the Maharil
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 13 2020, 12:01 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
The type of learning discussed in this thread doesnt fall under the category of tiflus...

The discussion above relates specifically to
teaching women Torah, and not to the study of
Torah by women on their own.
The Perishah (Yoreh De’ah 246:15) notes that
the wording of the Rambam refers specifically to
teaching Torah to women and not to self-study,
and that a woman who studies Torah receives
reward for it. In addition, the Rambam says that
most women are not intellectually capable of
study, implying that some women are capable
of such study.
Based on these observations, the Perishah
concludes that women who learn Torah on their
own have distinguished themselves from the
majority, and therefore earn reward (provided
they do not turn the words of Torah into
nonsense).
This does not mean, however, that women
should be encouraged to study Torah on their
own. A woman who decides to learn Torah of
her own accord is judged to be exceptional,
while one who does so because of external
encouragement, or because of social pressure,
will not enjoy this special status.
Rav Shach zt”l also writes that the restriction
against Torah study for women does not apply
to self-study (Avi Ezri, Talmud Torah 1:13).
In fact, the idea is already noted by the Maharil


A lot of this sounds like what I’ve been saying. I’ve also heard the diyuk of “Kol Hamelamed Es Bito” to mean specifically if it is taught to women systematically, as opposed to them picking up a Gemara on their own.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 13 2020, 2:05 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
My goal is also to be exposed to.the thrust of what's in it. To know that wow that debate goes all the way back to the Gemara. I also have 5 men in my house incl DH who DO NOT learn (coz they haven't been to Yeshiva and don't see the importance of it (long story)). I feel like it might encourage them. (One son HAS learned a few pages with me from.this and says he wants to do more). It means I can say stuff like 'oh that's interesting because it says on today's daf
....' and bring more Torah conversation in to the house.

BTW I also learn Chumash/parsha, where my goal is more to improve my textual skills to be able to understand all.of the mefarshim on the page.


Ditto on both the bolded.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 13 2020, 7:38 am
I've started a new thread for those who are learning daf yomi and would like a place to share thoughts and questions! NOT a debate thread. (Sorry OP that this thread turned into a debate against your wishes.)

If you're learning daf yomi (to any extent), you're welcome to come and join us here.
https://www.imamother.com/foru.....95901
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saw50st8




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 13 2020, 7:56 am
malki2 wrote:
Excellent. Yes, I did intimate that men are generally better at math (/engineering) than women. But you are 100% correct that verbal intelligence is just as important. Honestly, I’m not saying that I know the reasons. What I do know is that women were generally discouraged from learning Gemara over the ages. And I have more respect for our Chachomim than to attribute that to male chauvinism (not saying that you personally didn’t). So my theory is that it is based on the concept of Melamda Tiflus, and that there was an understanding by Chazal that the mechanics of the female mind operated differently than those of the male mind, and that they were not suited for systematic Gemara learning. And again, I don’t profess to know the exact reason. But I do believe that their minds work differently. I definitely believe in Bina Yeseira/Daatan Kalos (and no, I don’t think daatan kalos means stupid). That’s my opinion/theory. You nor anyone else here does not have to agree with it. You are all entitled to your opinions. And yes, I have looked up Gemaras myself. And understood them.


There used to be prevailing thoughts that women couldn't be lawyers or doctors. Now women outnumber men in both medical and law school. [Analyzing gemara is very similar to the legal thought process which is why law schools used to take so many BTL students]

There is a lot of research being done about why women don't go into math/engineering fields as much since girls have the same aptitude for math at younger ages. I'm a female engineer who didn't find engineering school hard at all and watched many of the male students struggle. Does that mean I get a pass and can learn gemara?
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 13 2020, 9:01 am
saw50st8 wrote:
There used to be prevailing thoughts that women couldn't be lawyers or doctors. Now women outnumber men in both medical and law school. [Analyzing gemara is very similar to the legal thought process which is why law schools used to take so many BTL students]

There is a lot of research being done about why women don't go into math/engineering fields as much since girls have the same aptitude for math at younger ages. I'm a female engineer who didn't find engineering school hard at all and watched many of the male students struggle. Does that mean I get a pass and can learn gemara?


Yes Wink

Engineering is still a man’s world, though. At least for now.

BTW even Natural Mom quoted the Rambam. Even I didn’t do that.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 13 2020, 10:46 pm
The earliest mention of Torah study by women occurs in Sifri(Devarim 46). Addressing the Torah obligation of teaching Torah to one’s children, the Sifri states: “And you shall teach your sons – and not your daughters.” This teaching is cited by the Gemara (Kiddushin 29b), and it implies that the general mitzvah of Torah study applies specifically to men and not to women.

Beyond the exemption of women from Torah study, the Mishnah (Sotah 3:4) cites the strong opposition of Rabbi Eliezer to Torah study for women. He states: “Anyone who teaches his daughter Torah teaches her tiflus” (Sotah 21b).

According to Rashi, the word tiflus is defined as lewdness or promiscuity, meaning that the study will bring a woman to sin. The Rambam, however, defines the term as referring to the learning itself, and the meaning is that the Torah study is blemished, and amounts to “vanity and nonsense” (Commentary to Sotah 3:4).

The same Tana, Rabbi Eliezer, is cited in the Yerushalmi as making the harsh statement: “The words of the Torah should be burned rather than entrusted to women.” It is noteworthy that even Ben Azzai, who maintains (as cited by the Mishnah) that a person should teach his daughter Torah, does not support study for study’s sake by women.

The Gemara does make some positive mention of women’s Torah study. In one place the Gemara notes that in the generation of King Hezekiah, “They did not find a single girl or boy, man or woman, who was not expert in the laws of ritual impurity and purity” (Sanhedrin 94b). The Mishnah in Nedarim (4:3) further teaches that that although somebody vows not to derive benefit from his fellow, that other is permitted to teach Torah to the sons and daughters of the person who made the oath.

Oral and Written Torah

Halachic authorities cite the restriction of Rabbi Eliezer. The Rambam (Torah Study 1:13) writes that a woman who studies Torah earns a reward thereby, though it is not the equal to that of a man who is commanded to study the Torah. He continues:

“And even though she earns a reward, the Sages commanded that a man shall not teach his daughter Torah because most women are not intellectually capable of study, but render words of Torah nonsense because of their ignorance.”

This ruling is cited by the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh De’ah 246:6). Yet, the Rambam (and after him the Shulchan Aruch) restricts the ruling to the Oral Torah, writing that the teaching of Rabbi Eliezer does not apply to the study of Scripture although such learning is also non-ideal.

The Bach (Yoreh De’ah 246) explains that the source for the distinction is the mitzvah of Hakhel, of which Rabbi Elazar ben Azaryah taught: “Men come to study, and women to hear.” Men are obligated to study, including the intricacies of the Oral Law, whereas women are charged with hearing – learning the words of Scripture alone.

As noted, the Rambam writes that even the study of Scripture by women is non-ideal – a ruling that is apparently contradicted by the Hakhel ceremony. The Taz (246:4) resolves this problem by explaining that the Hakhel ceremony involved only the simple hearing and understanding of the Torah words, which is ideal even for women. The Rambam, however, refers to in-depth study.

The Bach himself offers an alternative explanation, distinguishing between regular study and a one-off session.

Thus, the severity involved with study by women of the Oral Law does not apply to the study of Scripture, yet it remains better for women to avoid it.

The Study of Practical Mitzvos

A further qualification of the issue relates to practical mitzvos that women need to know for in the course of their lives. The Sefer Chassidim (313) writes that the restriction of Rabbi Eliezer (tiflus) applies specifically to in-depth study, and to the study of Torah secrets. Concerning practical mitzvos, he relies on the precedents of King Hezekiah and the Hakhel ceremony to permit Torah study, provided that a father “should not allow his daughters to grow up and study in front of young men, lest he sin thereby, but he should teach them himself.”

The Maharil (Shut Maharil no. 199) objected to this approach, opining that women can gain practical knowledge by means of practical tradition without the need for any formal study. Indeed, he writes that “we see, in our generation, how well-versed women are in laws of salting and washing (meat) … and in the laws of niddah, and all by means of external tradition.”

The Rema (246:6) rules on this matter in accordance with the Maharil, writing that a woman must learn the halachos related to women.

Yet, a number of commentaries stress that this does not mean to obligate women in Torah study in the same sense as men: Rather than an obligation of study per se, the obligation of women goes no further than their need to know the relevant halachos (see Beis Ha-Levi 1:6; Avnei Nezer, Yoreh De’ah 352). In contrast with the regular mitzvah of Torah study for a man, in the case of women the objective (of knowing what to do) alone is important.

This approach leads to a general limitation of the scope of teaching Torah to women and girls, as summed up by Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggros Moshe, Yoreh De’ah 3, no. 87):

“In the matter of girls’ schools that are called ‘Beis Yaakov’ and the like, where the management and the teachers want to teach them Mishnah, the Rambam (Torah Study 1:13) rules according to Rabbi Eliezer that one must not teach Torah to girls […] and at the very least Mishnah, which is the Oral Law, the sages commanded not to teach them, and this is considered as teaching tiflus. Therefore, they should be prevented from this, and the study should be limited to Pirkei Avos which […] to arouse them to love of Torah and positive character traits, but not other tractates.”

In spite of the need for them to know laws pertinent to daily life, Rav Moshe thus rules that girls should not be taught the Oral Law (meaning Mishnah and Gemara), with the exception of Pirkei Avos.
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ectomorph




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 8:44 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
You know ectomorph, the same poskim who forbid women to learn gemarah are also not makpid on women davening three times a day. And it certainly says nowhere that women must learn parsha and halacha every day.

I'm not sure why so many feel the need to make fun of this.

If you have no interest in learning gemarah, good for you! Why spoil the party for everyone else.

I wasn't making fun. I was pointing out messed up priorities.
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