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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 28 2020, 6:51 pm
Once again, common sense seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird. We are living the 21st century. It is high time that the rabbinic leadership of the largest segment of Orthodox Jewry recognize that. Unfortunately it appears they do not. Instead of respecting the intelligence of the modern day Orthodox woman they still treat them as though they were simpletons incapable of understanding words of Torah that have any amount of depth to them.

Which is complete nonsense! As Rav Soloveitchik plainly observed decades ago, women are now achieving PhDs in the most difficult areas of study. Areas that require a high degree of intelligence It is absurd to say that they do not think deeply enough to study Torah in depth.

So I completely understand why Dasi Shneider was insulted by how the people that ran the recent Siyum treated women. Here is how she described it in JOFA (Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance) blog-post featured in the Jewish Week-Timesof Israel:
The magazine geared towards the men was filled with tidbits of history, stories of sacrifice for the sake of Torah study, and pictures of gedolim.
The one for women was…disappointing, to say the least.
We were given recipes ideas and article after article telling us that our only merit lies in how supportive we are of our husbands and sons as they pursue Torah study.
To say that I am angry would be an understatement. I am livid. Did the creators of this magazine think that women’s minds can’t handle a few divrei Torah? Did they really think that the only thing we would care about during a monumental celebration of Torah would be what we should cook once we got home?
The message was clear: our place is in the kitchen, not the beit midrash.
I don’t blame Ms. Schneider for feeling this way. She was in fact ‘told’ in so many words that she’s too stupid to do what her husband and sons do. And that all she can hope for is to support them in their Torah study. And that her lot in life as a woman is to be basically ‘barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.’

Why must the Charedi world see women in this way?

I blame it in part on their refusal to recognize the value of virtually anything outside of their world. I also blame it on a sort of backlash against feminism. They see any assertion by women to be treated in any way as an equal to men as anathema to Torah values.

What about what about what Rav Soloveitchik said? They could not care less about his views. That was reflected in notorious obituary they wrote upon his death where they basically said he went OTD! An obituary that was approved by their leadership!

I do not want to belabor that point. I mention it only to show how little they care about what he thinks.

Jewish women deserve to be treated with respect. Not only for what they can contribute in the kitchen. Not only for supporting their husbands in their Torah study. But respected for the intelligent human beings they are.

That being said I found Ms. Schneider's attitude about the traditional role of women to be highly condescending. Yes. Se does make a very valid point. But that should in no way should detract from the actual sacrifices that these women were given credit for by the Charedi world.

Of course she didn’t say so in so many words. But her article said nothing about those virtues. As though it was beneath the dignity of a woman to assume the traditional roles as full time wives, mothers, and homemakers . Roles that our mother and grandmothers gladly fulfilled. And felt fulfilled about.

How can anyone be so condescending about the way our female ancestors lived?! Do they think that those women felt like second class citizens? Does she think they secretly wanted to learn Torah but were too scared to say it out loud? Were those women ignorant fools who did not know better? Is being a female Talmid Chachama a greater accomplishment than being a full time wife, mother and homemaker? Does she think so little of the generations that preceded her? Does she think those roles were perpetuated because of a paternalistic society raised on misogyny? Is that what she thinks of our sages?

Yes, I know women can walk and chew gum. But just because they want to do things differently now and maybe inhabit both worlds does not mean they should look down at the many women that are happy to live their lives in the traditional roles their mothers and grandmothers did.

It is almost as though feminists like Ms Schneider have something to prove. They want to prove they can compete with men equally in everything. Or maybe even better than men. Its almost like that old song, Anything You Can Do which pits men and women together with each relations claiming they can do better then the other.

That is a bridge too far for me. As much as I sympathize with Ms. Schneider’s feeling about how she was treated, I am disappointed at the lack of sensitivity given to traditional female roles. As if being a full time wife, mother and homemaker is something to be ashamed of.

I don’t know if Ms. Schneider is more concerned about advancing the cause of feminism then she is about advancing the cause of Judaism. But at some point she might have to make a decision about which value to sacrifice if they come into conflict. If she can’t accommodate both, which one will she choose?
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amother




Oak
 

Post  Tue, Jan 28 2020, 9:16 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Once again, common sense seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird. We are living the 21st century. It is high time that the rabbinic leadership of the largest segment of Orthodox Jewry recognize that. Unfortunately it appears they do not. Instead of respecting the intelligence of the modern day Orthodox woman they still treat them as though they were simpletons incapable of understanding words of Torah that have any amount of depth to them.

Which is complete nonsense! As Rav Soloveitchik plainly observed decades ago, women are now achieving PhDs in the most difficult areas of study. Areas that require a high degree of intelligence It is absurd to say that they do not think deeply enough to study Torah in depth.

So I completely understand why Dasi Shneider was insulted by how the people that ran the recent Siyum treated women. Here is how she described it in JOFA (Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance) blog-post featured in the Jewish Week-Timesof Israel:
The magazine geared towards the men was filled with tidbits of history, stories of sacrifice for the sake of Torah study, and pictures of gedolim.
The one for women was…disappointing, to say the least.
We were given recipes ideas and article after article telling us that our only merit lies in how supportive we are of our husbands and sons as they pursue Torah study.
To say that I am angry would be an understatement. I am livid. Did the creators of this magazine think that women’s minds can’t handle a few divrei Torah? Did they really think that the only thing we would care about during a monumental celebration of Torah would be what we should cook once we got home?
The message was clear: our place is in the kitchen, not the beit midrash.
I don’t blame Ms. Schneider for feeling this way. She was in fact ‘told’ in so many words that she’s too stupid to do what her husband and sons do. And that all she can hope for is to support them in their Torah study. And that her lot in life as a woman is to be basically ‘barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.’

Why must the Charedi world see women in this way?

I blame it in part on their refusal to recognize the value of virtually anything outside of their world. I also blame it on a sort of backlash against feminism. They see any assertion by women to be treated in any way as an equal to men as anathema to Torah values.

What about what about what Rav Soloveitchik said? They could not care less about his views. That was reflected in notorious obituary they wrote upon his death where they basically said he went OTD! An obituary that was approved by their leadership!

I do not want to belabor that point. I mention it only to show how little they care about what he thinks.

Jewish women deserve to be treated with respect. Not only for what they can contribute in the kitchen. Not only for supporting their husbands in their Torah study. But respected for the intelligent human beings they are.

That being said I found Ms. Schneider's attitude about the traditional role of women to be highly condescending. Yes. Se does make a very valid point. But that should in no way should detract from the actual sacrifices that these women were given credit for by the Charedi world.

Of course she didn’t say so in so many words. But her article said nothing about those virtues. As though it was beneath the dignity of a woman to assume the traditional roles as full time wives, mothers, and homemakers . Roles that our mother and grandmothers gladly fulfilled. And felt fulfilled about.

How can anyone be so condescending about the way our female ancestors lived?! Do they think that those women felt like second class citizens? Does she think they secretly wanted to learn Torah but were too scared to say it out loud? Were those women ignorant fools who did not know better? Is being a female Talmid Chachama a greater accomplishment than being a full time wife, mother and homemaker? Does she think so little of the generations that preceded her? Does she think those roles were perpetuated because of a paternalistic society raised on misogyny? Is that what she thinks of our sages?

Yes, I know women can walk and chew gum. But just because they want to do things differently now and maybe inhabit both worlds does not mean they should look down at the many women that are happy to live their lives in the traditional roles their mothers and grandmothers did.

It is almost as though feminists like Ms Schneider have something to prove. They want to prove they can compete with men equally in everything. Or maybe even better than men. Its almost like that old song, Anything You Can Do which pits men and women together with each relations claiming they can do better then the other.

That is a bridge too far for me. As much as I sympathize with Ms. Schneider’s feeling about how she was treated, I am disappointed at the lack of sensitivity given to traditional female roles. As if being a full time wife, mother and homemaker is something to be ashamed of.

I don’t know if Ms. Schneider is more concerned about advancing the cause of feminism then she is about advancing the cause of Judaism. But at some point she might have to make a decision about which value to sacrifice if they come into conflict. If she can’t accommodate both, which one will she choose?


What is your point in posting this? And why don’t you attribute it to Harry Maryles, who posted it on his Emes-Ve’Emunah Blog? Do you agree with him or with her?
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 28 2020, 10:43 pm
I felt that this post was very relevant to this thread .

Im not sure how I feel, he has a point to a degree, however no of the women I learn with are doing it for feminist reasons at all, most are thirsty for ruchnius and Torah.

Its sad that most Charedim cant seem to get that, even Harry who is always screaming he isnt Charedi
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amother




Oak
 

Post  Tue, Jan 28 2020, 11:04 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
I felt that this post was very relevant to this thread .

Im not sure how I feel, he has a point to a degree, however no of the women I learn with are doing it for feminist reasons at all, most are thirsty for ruchnius and Torah.

Its sad that most Charedim cant seem to get that, even Harry who is always screaming he isnt Charedi


He isn’t Chareidi. He also isn’t a feminist, despite his frequent assertions that he supports women’s rights, etc.

This was the best comment I saw, and it was by Manya Shochet, one of the (very) few women who comment on his blog:

“It was patronizing. Thanks to advancements in health and medicine, very few women die in childbirth and most of us are robust enough to enjoy advancements in technology that make it faster and far easier to maintain our homes. Texts and teachers are available for the many, not just a few lucky elites, and more women, as well as more men, are able to enjoy the delights of Torah study.
The true challenge of our day is how we will make use of all this bounty of time, money, and resources. Will we use it to blossom in our own Torah learning, or will we just squander it on Western-style consumer culture?”
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 12:16 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Once again, common sense seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird. We are living the 21st century. It is high time that the rabbinic leadership of the largest segment of Orthodox Jewry recognize that. Unfortunately it appears they do not. Instead of respecting the intelligence of the modern day Orthodox woman they still treat them as though they were simpletons incapable of understanding words of Torah that have any amount of depth to them.

Which is complete nonsense! As Rav Soloveitchik plainly observed decades ago, women are now achieving PhDs in the most difficult areas of study. Areas that require a high degree of intelligence It is absurd to say that they do not think deeply enough to study Torah in depth.

So I completely understand why Dasi Shneider was insulted by how the people that ran the recent Siyum treated women. Here is how she described it in JOFA (Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance) blog-post featured in the Jewish Week-Timesof Israel:
The magazine geared towards the men was filled with tidbits of history, stories of sacrifice for the sake of Torah study, and pictures of gedolim.
The one for women was…disappointing, to say the least.
We were given recipes ideas and article after article telling us that our only merit lies in how supportive we are of our husbands and sons as they pursue Torah study.
To say that I am angry would be an understatement. I am livid. Did the creators of this magazine think that women’s minds can’t handle a few divrei Torah? Did they really think that the only thing we would care about during a monumental celebration of Torah would be what we should cook once we got home?
The message was clear: our place is in the kitchen, not the beit midrash.
I don’t blame Ms. Schneider for feeling this way. She was in fact ‘told’ in so many words that she’s too stupid to do what her husband and sons do. And that all she can hope for is to support them in their Torah study. And that her lot in life as a woman is to be basically ‘barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.’

Why must the Charedi world see women in this way?

I blame it in part on their refusal to recognize the value of virtually anything outside of their world. I also blame it on a sort of backlash against feminism. They see any assertion by women to be treated in any way as an equal to men as anathema to Torah values.

What about what about what Rav Soloveitchik said? They could not care less about his views. That was reflected in notorious obituary they wrote upon his death where they basically said he went OTD! An obituary that was approved by their leadership!

I do not want to belabor that point. I mention it only to show how little they care about what he thinks.

Jewish women deserve to be treated with respect. Not only for what they can contribute in the kitchen. Not only for supporting their husbands in their Torah study. But respected for the intelligent human beings they are.

That being said I found Ms. Schneider's attitude about the traditional role of women to be highly condescending. Yes. Se does make a very valid point. But that should in no way should detract from the actual sacrifices that these women were given credit for by the Charedi world.

Of course she didn’t say so in so many words. But her article said nothing about those virtues. As though it was beneath the dignity of a woman to assume the traditional roles as full time wives, mothers, and homemakers . Roles that our mother and grandmothers gladly fulfilled. And felt fulfilled about.

How can anyone be so condescending about the way our female ancestors lived?! Do they think that those women felt like second class citizens? Does she think they secretly wanted to learn Torah but were too scared to say it out loud? Were those women ignorant fools who did not know better? Is being a female Talmid Chachama a greater accomplishment than being a full time wife, mother and homemaker? Does she think so little of the generations that preceded her? Does she think those roles were perpetuated because of a paternalistic society raised on misogyny? Is that what she thinks of our sages?

Yes, I know women can walk and chew gum. But just because they want to do things differently now and maybe inhabit both worlds does not mean they should look down at the many women that are happy to live their lives in the traditional roles their mothers and grandmothers did.

It is almost as though feminists like Ms Schneider have something to prove. They want to prove they can compete with men equally in everything. Or maybe even better than men. Its almost like that old song, Anything You Can Do which pits men and women together with each relations claiming they can do better then the other.

That is a bridge too far for me. As much as I sympathize with Ms. Schneider’s feeling about how she was treated, I am disappointed at the lack of sensitivity given to traditional female roles. As if being a full time wife, mother and homemaker is something to be ashamed of.

I don’t know if Ms. Schneider is more concerned about advancing the cause of feminism then she is about advancing the cause of Judaism. But at some point she might have to make a decision about which value to sacrifice if they come into conflict. If she can’t accommodate both, which one will she choose?


You give a lot of credit to the writers of the magazine by assuming that they made it under the direction of Daas Torah (and also by assuming that they have brains). I think that many people are just thoughtless. (Like when they put the women at the far end of the room at a simcha, completely behind the mechitza, and don’t speak loud enough for us to hear, and then bang on the mechitza when we talk. Just basic thoughtlessness. A major pet peeve of mine. But I digress.) I don’t believe, though, that the leadership denies that women can be of high intelligence and cannot understand Divrei Torah. I’ve been by Shabbos meals of many people in Charedi society, and the husband almost always waited for his wife before he said Divrei Torah, even long and intricate ones. Should women be learning Gemara is something that I don’t feel is relevant to the greater concept of respect of women’s intellect, and it’s already been discussed a number of times on this and other threads.

I did very much appreciate and agree with the point that you made in the second half of your post. And your entire post was absolutely brilliant, BTW. I do want to ask a question, respectfully. From where did opinions such as those espoused by Ms. Schneider originate? Was it not at least indirectly from Rav Soloveitchik and his students? These opinions definitely did not come from the mainstream Chareidi Gedolim. I don’t think that the opposition to Rav Soloveitchik was because of who he was per se, but I think it was because the Gedolim saw what his hashkafos could potentially lead to in the future generations. I’m sure that you don’t agree, but this is my opinion, stated respectfully.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 2:19 am
Naturalmom5, when you post articles, I'd really appreciate an attribution and/or link to the original. האומר דבר בשם אומרו מביא גאולה לעולם (מגילה טז
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saw50st8




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 7:47 am
My friend who completed the last daf yomi cycle is a SAHM with a lot of kids. She also got through medical school and chose to be home with her family.

I think people try to put women in a "feminist" box to hold them back and say "See, they are really just doing it for the wrong reasons. I know!" You can't know someone's motivation. There is no reason to hold women back. I actually suspect that men try to hold women back from gemara because they fear that women will be better Torah scholars then they are once they are given full access.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 9:28 am
saw50st8 wrote:
My friend who completed the last daf yomi cycle is a SAHM with a lot of kids. She also got through medical school and chose to be home with her family.

I think people try to put women in a "feminist" box to hold them back and say "See, they are really just doing it for the wrong reasons. I know!" You can't know someone's motivation. There is no reason to hold women back. I actually suspect that men try to hold women back from gemara because they fear that women will be better Torah scholars then they are once they are given full access.


Come on, don’t you think that’s a bit of a stretch? Are you actually accusing our Torah leaders throughout the ages of suppressing women from learning Gemara for fear that they would outshine them given the chance? If they are this silly, then I wondering why you care to learn their Torah?
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 12:06 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
My friend who completed the last daf yomi cycle is a SAHM with a lot of kids. She also got through medical school and chose to be home with her family.

I think people try to put women in a "feminist" box to hold them back and say "See, they are really just doing it for the wrong reasons. I know!" You can't know someone's motivation. There is no reason to hold women back. I actually suspect that men try to hold women back from gemara because they fear that women will be better Torah scholars then they are once they are given full access.


Let's not assume bad motivation on either side.
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saw50st8




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 12:14 pm
malki2 wrote:
Come on, don’t you think that’s a bit of a stretch? Are you actually accusing our Torah leaders throughout the ages of suppressing women from learning Gemara for fear that they would outshine them given the chance? If they are this silly, then I wondering why you care to learn their Torah?


Historically, no because they just kind of assumed that most women couldn't handle it.

Nowadays? Yes absolutely. Women are experts in every field but somehow can't comprehend Torah? But they already study Tanach and mefarshim on tanach at a very high level. I don't think it may be so conscious of Rabbonim but I do think the fear is deep seated. Look at how women are excelling in medical and law school. With appropriate training, women will excel at learning Gemara.
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amother




Khaki
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 4:14 pm
I wonder if it has to do with certain gemaras where I say to myself "no wonder they don't want women learning gemara." I can see where certain people could be so turned off by certain things (which may have to do with culture & history etc) that it could lead to bad results.
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samantha87




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 29 2020, 8:37 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Once again, common sense seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird. We are living the 21st century. It is high time that the rabbinic leadership of the largest segment of Orthodox Jewry recognize that. Unfortunately it appears they do not. Instead of respecting the intelligence of the modern day Orthodox woman they still treat them as though they were simpletons incapable of understanding words of Torah that have any amount of depth to them.

Which is complete nonsense! As Rav Soloveitchik plainly observed decades ago, women are now achieving PhDs in the most difficult areas of study. Areas that require a high degree of intelligence It is absurd to say that they do not think deeply enough to study Torah in depth.

So I completely understand why Dasi Shneider was insulted by how the people that ran the recent Siyum treated women. Here is how she described it in JOFA (Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance) blog-post featured in the Jewish Week-Timesof Israel:
The magazine geared towards the men was filled with tidbits of history, stories of sacrifice for the sake of Torah study, and pictures of gedolim.
The one for women was…disappointing, to say the least.
We were given recipes ideas and article after article telling us that our only merit lies in how supportive we are of our husbands and sons as they pursue Torah study.
To say that I am angry would be an understatement. I am livid. Did the creators of this magazine think that women’s minds can’t handle a few divrei Torah? Did they really think that the only thing we would care about during a monumental celebration of Torah would be what we should cook once we got home?
The message was clear: our place is in the kitchen, not the beit midrash.
I don’t blame Ms. Schneider for feeling this way. She was in fact ‘told’ in so many words that she’s too stupid to do what her husband and sons do. And that all she can hope for is to support them in their Torah study. And that her lot in life as a woman is to be basically ‘barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.’

Why must the Charedi world see women in this way?

I blame it in part on their refusal to recognize the value of virtually anything outside of their world. I also blame it on a sort of backlash against feminism. They see any assertion by women to be treated in any way as an equal to men as anathema to Torah values.

What about what about what Rav Soloveitchik said? They could not care less about his views. That was reflected in notorious obituary they wrote upon his death where they basically said he went OTD! An obituary that was approved by their leadership!

I do not want to belabor that point. I mention it only to show how little they care about what he thinks.

Jewish women deserve to be treated with respect. Not only for what they can contribute in the kitchen. Not only for supporting their husbands in their Torah study. But respected for the intelligent human beings they are.

That being said I found Ms. Schneider's attitude about the traditional role of women to be highly condescending. Yes. Se does make a very valid point. But that should in no way should detract from the actual sacrifices that these women were given credit for by the Charedi world.

Of course she didn’t say so in so many words. But her article said nothing about those virtues. As though it was beneath the dignity of a woman to assume the traditional roles as full time wives, mothers, and homemakers . Roles that our mother and grandmothers gladly fulfilled. And felt fulfilled about.

How can anyone be so condescending about the way our female ancestors lived?! Do they think that those women felt like second class citizens? Does she think they secretly wanted to learn Torah but were too scared to say it out loud? Were those women ignorant fools who did not know better? Is being a female Talmid Chachama a greater accomplishment than being a full time wife, mother and homemaker? Does she think so little of the generations that preceded her? Does she think those roles were perpetuated because of a paternalistic society raised on misogyny? Is that what she thinks of our sages?

Yes, I know women can walk and chew gum. But just because they want to do things differently now and maybe inhabit both worlds does not mean they should look down at the many women that are happy to live their lives in the traditional roles their mothers and grandmothers did.

It is almost as though feminists like Ms Schneider have something to prove. They want to prove they can compete with men equally in everything. Or maybe even better than men. Its almost like that old song, Anything You Can Do which pits men and women together with each relations claiming they can do better then the other.

That is a bridge too far for me. As much as I sympathize with Ms. Schneider’s feeling about how she was treated, I am disappointed at the lack of sensitivity given to traditional female roles. As if being a full time wife, mother and homemaker is something to be ashamed of.

I don’t know if Ms. Schneider is more concerned about advancing the cause of feminism then she is about advancing the cause of Judaism. But at some point she might have to make a decision about which value to sacrifice if they come into conflict. If she can’t accommodate both, which one will she choose?


Why complain about the magazine at the Siyum? Just let the Agudah be the Agudah. The Siyum was their show, and we shouldn't be offended that it followed their hashkofas.

And complaining about the Jewish Observer obituary for the Rav, lots of people read the Jewish Action issue on the Daf, but who's seen the Jewish Observer in the last 20 years?
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