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Debate on women learning Gemara s/o
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:57 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
In some circles (dati leumi and modern orthodox) there are actually schools where women are learning gemara in depth. And I am 100% positive that it is not women who want to be like men. They just want the same opportunity to learn gemara because they find it interesting.


Torah should be interesting. It should be sweet. It's what we daven for every day in ve'ha'arev na.
But men don't learn because "it's interesting" though it's great if it is.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:04 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Torah should be interesting. It should be sweet. It's what we daven for every day in ve'ha'arev na.
But men don't learn because "it's interesting" though it's great if it is.

Men learn torah because they have a chiyuv. Should women not learn, just because they don’t?
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:04 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Have you actually read this gemara? I just looked it up. It is not a set in stone halacha, its a conversation at best.


:ETA: I see gingertop wrote the same Smile


צוו חז"ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן אמרו חכמים כל המלמד את בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תיפלות (פי' דבר עבירה)

I read it. Of course it's not a set-in-stone Halacha, but it does say what it says, and those words were written to mean what they mean. So that's the basic understanding, and the one that traditional Jews follow. Obviously others have RJBS to back them up, but I'm just going with the traditional understanding. I was never trying to debate this halacha; my question is which women are the ones trying to learn Daf Yomi? The traditional (Charedi/Yeshivish) ones, or the right-wing MO / Dati Leumi. In other words, so that I don't offend anybody, I understand that this is prevalent in the MO / DL community, but is this also becoming a thing in the Yeshivish circles? That's all.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:12 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Torah should be interesting. It should be sweet. It's what we daven for every day in ve'ha'arev na.
But men don't learn because "it's interesting" though it's great if it is.
Thats the point really. Some women were saying why would any woman want to learn gemara like men, that men have to learn etc. But thats the whole point. These women who are learning gemara are doing so because they WANT to. And personally, I find that fascinating and pretty darn amazing.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:14 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Men learn torah because they have a chiyuv. Should women not learn, just because they don’t?


Sure we should learn. And I'm not knocking the women learning gemara. But it's a commitment. And has to be put in the appropriate place of the daily priority list. I wish women who are embarking on this well.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:18 pm
malki2 wrote:
צוו חז"ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן אמרו חכמים כל המלמד את בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תיפלות (פי' דבר עבירה)

I read it. Of course it's not a set-in-stone Halacha, but it does say what it says, and those words were written to mean what they mean. So that's the basic understanding, and the one that traditional Jews follow. Obviously others have RJBS to back them up, but I'm just going with the traditional understanding. I was never trying to debate this halacha; my question is which women are the ones trying to learn Daf Yomi? The traditional (Charedi/Yeshivish) ones, or the right-wing MO / Dati Leumi. In other words, so that I don't offend anybody, I understand that this is prevalent in the MO / DL community, but is this also becoming a thing in the Yeshivish circles? That's all.
Thats the thing really. Who are we to decide who is the "traditional jews"? In the time of mamad har sinai, we were all one, no divisions, so why are the charedim traditional and not the dati leumi or any other bunch?
I think, just like hundreds of years ago no women learned torah until it became mainstream and rabbanim started to ok it, I think the same will happen with gemara. There are many dati leumi rabbanim and MO rabbanim that are fine with women learning gemara. I actually think that this was always a non issue in those communities to be honest. It was one of those things that were not necessarily asked about, until women wanted to start learning and then rabbanim that were fine with it, and even some who were very interested in helping women learn gemara, came out of the woodwork.

Just remember, judaism is NOT about everything beign ussur until proven to be allowed.
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amother




Lime
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:20 pm
malki2 wrote:
צוו חז"ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן אמרו חכמים כל המלמד את בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תיפלות (פי' דבר עבירה)

I read it. Of course it's not a set-in-stone Halacha, but it does say what it says, and those words were written to mean what they mean. So that's the basic understanding, and the one that traditional Jews follow. Obviously others have RJBS to back them up, but I'm just going with the traditional understanding. I was never trying to debate this halacha; my question is which women are the ones trying to learn Daf Yomi? The traditional (Charedi/Yeshivish) ones, or the right-wing MO / Dati Leumi. In other words, so that I don't offend anybody, I understand that this is prevalent in the MO / DL community, but is this also becoming a thing in the Yeshivish circles? That's all.


You are quoting a passage that says a man shouldn't teach his daughter Torah. That it's like teaching her תיפלות, nothing, frivolous nonsense.
The passage doesn't say 'don't teach girls gemara'. It says, don't teach them Torah!

So if you follow this, am I to assume you don't send your girls to BY type schools?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:21 pm
gingertop wrote:
It doesn't say that it's assur. It's a discussion if it's wise, if a woman gets reward

אשה שלמדה תורה יש לה שכר אבל לא כשכר האיש מפני שאינה מצווה ועושה ואע"פ שיש לה שכר צוו חז"ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן אמרו חכמים כל המלמד את בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תיפלות (פי' דבר עבירה) בד"א תורה שבע"פ אבל תורה שבכתב לא ילמד אותה לכתחלה ואם מלמדה אינו כמלמד' תיפלות (רמב"ם וסמ"ג ולא כמקצת ספרי הטור) : הגה ומ"מ חייבת האשה ללמוד דינים השייכים לאשה (אגור בשם סמ"ג) ואשה אינה חייבת ללמד את בנה תורה ומ"מ אם עוזרת לבנה או לבעלה שיעסקו בתורה חולקת שכר בהדייהו (הגהות מיי' פ"א דת"ת וסמ"ג):


In fact, since it’s explicit in the שו״ע that women get שכר for learning (though not as much as men), it is clear that it is not only permitted for them to learn, but it is in fact considered a good thing!
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:23 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Thats the thing really. Who are we to decide who is the "traditional jews"? In the time of mamad har sinai, we were all one, no divisions, so why are the charedim traditional and not the dati leumi or any other bunch?
I think, just like hundreds of years ago no women learned torah until it became mainstream and rabbanim started to ok it, I think the same will happen with gemara. There are many dati leumi rabbanim and MO rabbanim that are fine with women learning gemara. I actually think that this was always a non issue in those communities to be honest. It was one of those things that were not necessarily asked about, until women wanted to start learning and then rabbanim that were fine with it, and even some who were very interested in helping women learn gemara, came out of the woodwork.

Just remember, judaism is NOT about everything beign ussur until proven to be allowed.

Not to hijack the spinoff, but were we really? I think IN THAT moment we were one (I mean, it says it right there in the Chumash) but before and after, I think there were always different types of people, and different types of Jews. I mean, you had Levi, who just learned and taught, and then there was yisachar and Zebulon, and then there were farmers and shepherds and judged and....I don’t think the divisiveness was as great back then, but I don’t think we were ever really ONE, except in that moment.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:23 pm
amother [ Lime ] wrote:
You are quoting a passage that says a man shouldn't teach his daughter Torah. That it's like teaching her תיפלות, nothing, frivolous nonsense.
The passage doesn't say 'don't teach girls gemara'. It says, don't teach them Torah!

So if you follow this, am I to assume you don't send your girls to BY type schools?


Yeah. And in the same Halacha, it says that it’s referring to Torah Shebeal Peh specifically. Please look it up.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:24 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
In fact, since it’s explicit in the שו״ע that women get שכר for learning (though not as much as men), it is clear that it is not only permitted for them to learn, but it is in fact considered a good thing!


Not regarding all types of learning is it a good thing according to the SA. That’s pretty clear.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:25 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Not to hijack the spinoff, but were we really? I think IN THAT moment we were one (I mean, it says it right there in the Chumash) but before and after, I think there were always different types of people, and different types of Jews. I mean, you had Levi, who just learned and taught, and then there was yisachar and Zebulon, and then there were farmers and shepherds and judged and....I don’t think the divisiveness was as great back then, but I don’t think we were ever really ONE, except in that moment.
Very true. I guess I just meant that whatever that poster meant, in her mind, as traditional jews, well, we frum jews, can ALL mean that. does that make more sense.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:26 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Thats the thing really. Who are we to decide who is the "traditional jews"? In the time of mamad har sinai, we were all one, no divisions, so why are the charedim traditional and not the dati leumi or any other bunch?
I think, just like hundreds of years ago no women learned torah until it became mainstream and rabbanim started to ok it, I think the same will happen with gemara. There are many dati leumi rabbanim and MO rabbanim that are fine with women learning gemara. I actually think that this was always a non issue in those communities to be honest. It was one of those things that were not necessarily asked about, until women wanted to start learning and then rabbanim that were fine with it, and even some who were very interested in helping women learn gemara, came out of the woodwork.

Just remember, judaism is NOT about everything beign ussur until proven to be allowed.


I don’t really care who considers themselves traditional. I am asking if Yeshivish women are doing this. Please only respond 1) if you are Yeshivish and are learning Daf Yomi 2) if you know of Yeshivish women who are learning Daf Yomi.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:28 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Very true. I guess I just meant that whatever that poster meant, in her mind, as traditional jews, well, we frum jews, can ALL mean that. does that make more sense.

Yup :-)
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amother




Lime
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:29 pm
malki2 wrote:
Yeah. And in the same Halacha, it says that it’s referring to Torah Shebeal Peh specifically. Please look it up.


I did look it up.
Girls learn a lot of תורה שבעל פה and much of it is not necessarily related to dinim they need to know for daily functioning.

In any case, as others have shown the passage is very ambivalent. And it does say women get sachar (only less).

And it's not halacha.
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amother




Lime
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:33 pm
malki2 wrote:
I don’t really care who considers themselves traditional. I am asking if Yeshivish women are doing this. Please only respond 1) if you are Yeshivish and are learning Daf Yomi 2) if you know of Yeshivish women who are learning Daf Yomi.


I am far from yeshivish.

But originally you asked if this is a 'thing' in frum circles. We answered that yes, it's a huge phenomenon (at least in Israel), and it's taken very seriously.

If you only wanted to hear about rw yeshivish circles, you should have stated that from the start.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:54 pm
malki2 wrote:
Yeah. And in the same Halacha, it says that it’s referring to Torah Shebeal Peh specifically. Please look it up.


Torah she’be’al peh includes midrash and mefarshim on Tanach. Yet those are included in the Chumash curricula of all Bais Yaakov schools that I am familiar with. You’re making an argument that I heard repeatedly going to an RW school growing up, but which is very hard to make consistent with the text you are citing.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 3:59 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Torah she’be’al peh includes midrash and mefarshim on Tanach. Yet those are included in the Chumash curricula of all Bais Yaakov schools that I am familiar with. You’re making an argument that I heard repeatedly going to an RW school growing up, but which is very hard to make consistent with the text you are citing.


Yeah, but I said earlier that it’s only going on Halachic Gemara. Not all Torah Shebeal Peh.
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 4:14 pm
I don't know a single woman who started learning Gemara because "if the men can, why can't we?"
They learn because they have a genuine thirst for knowledge.
I must say, I am envious and wish I had that thirst. I should be learning a lot more than I do-whether the weekly parshah, relevant halachos etc.
Kol hakavod to busy women who prioritize spirituality!
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 4:14 pm
malki2 wrote:
I don’t really care who considers themselves traditional. I am asking if Yeshivish women are doing this. Please only respond 1) if you are Yeshivish and are learning Daf Yomi 2) if you know of Yeshivish women who are learning Daf Yomi.


I am from the Yeshivish community and have been learning Daf Yomi regularly for the past couple of years - with the full blessing of my husband (who has been learning in Kollel for several decades). As of now, only my husband and kids know about it - not my parents, siblings, Yeshivish friends, etc.

With regard to the larger picture, I will include my comment from the other thread:

We say every morning that Torah is “Morasha Kehillat Yaakov.” Are we not included in Kehillat Yaakov?
We say every day in Birchas HaTorah “V’nihiyeh anachnu, v’tze’etza’einu, v’tze’etza’ei amcha Bais Yisrael, kulanu yod’ei sh’mecha v’lomdei Torasecha l’shma.” Are we not included in anachnu and or tze’etza’ei amcha Bais Yisrael, or kulanu?
As far as I know, Torah was given to women, as well as men - and we have a right (even if no obligation) to learn it.

There are many interpretations regarding the advice to fathers not to teach their daughters Torah, and one that is commonly held is that fathers should not force it on their daughters, especially when they are young, because the daughters may not take it seriously, and it may lead to a bad outcome, however a girl/woman of good character, who actively seeks Torah learning is not assumed to be in the category of one who will not take it seriously. In addition, I have never seen anywhere that a woman is prohibited from learning on her own, or that someone else is prohibited to teach her. Also, even with regard to fathers, there are differences of opinion - e.g. Ben Azzai held that a father is required to teach his daughter(s) Torah (although that has not become the accepted position.)

As far as not having time to learn - Lakol zman v’eis. When my children were younger, I had less time (and also learning was not as easily accessible as it is now). Now that my children are older, it is more easy to find some time. In addition with the easy access to podcasts, etc. it is easy listen while commuting, driving, folding laundry, sitting on exercise bicycle etc. On occasion, I have to split up (or make up) the Daf, but for almost two years, I have been able to keep up.

Although I share some of the goals of feminism, I do not learn as a feminist. I learn for the same reason I think most women learn - to connect to our Creator and to better understand our religion, which is so central to our lives. I feel that learning has enriched my life, and I have gained immensely. I highly recommend Rabbi Shalom Rosner’s podcasts, if you can fit them in. You will gain a wealth of knowledge about your own religion - and why wouldn’t you want that?

BTW - for those who believe that it is assur for women to learn Torah sh’ba’al peh- please be aware that even Rashi has the status of Torah sh’ba’al peh.
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