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Debate on women learning Gemara s/o
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Ruchel




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 4:20 pm
If it's your minhag and you want to yay
I have no desire to see it litmus test of devotion
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 5:18 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Not to hijack the spinoff, but were we really? I think IN THAT moment we were one (I mean, it says it right there in the Chumash) but before and after, I think there were always different types of people, and different types of Jews. I mean, you had Levi, who just learned and taught, and then there was yisachar and Zebulon, and then there were farmers and shepherds and judged and....I don’t think the divisiveness was as great back then, but I don’t think we were ever really ONE, except in that moment.


The way I learned it is, while we knew the formation of BY in the desert as early as the death of Yaakov, we were only given the formation officially after Matan Torah. It's fine if we're different (think of the Yam Suf, which is a template for everyone having her own path) provided we're all united around the Torah, the Torah being the center of our existence.

True unity does NOT mean being clones.
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BetsyTacy




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 5:58 pm
I dont even understand the words "for people who think it is assur for girls to learn torah shbal peh".
To whom,other than the karaites, does that apply?
Even if your shita does not have girls learning mishna and gemara inside, how can any girl not "learn torah shbaal peh"?
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amother




Blue
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 6:24 pm
Hi. I started the original daf yomi thread. I haven't read all of this thread. TBH I THINK HKBH would be more 'pleased' , ie I would make a more positive contribution to the world, by spending a few minutes listening to a podcast that explained today's daf, than by reading this thread. Not to disparage any of you. Everyone is different. But at this point in my.life and learning history I look at this thread and I think- yep, heard it all before, debated it all before, I can see both sides... I'd be better of learning something than hashing it all.l out again.

But for those of you who have NOT yet spent time hashing it all out, or for those that have hashed it out and believe that continuing to do so.is good for klal Yisrael , go for I!! Everyone is different. Everyone has an important contribution to make. At this point in my life I am SO glad that I am female and don't have a chiyuv to learn per se. I can learn whatever I want. If it doesn't speak to me I can switch to.something else. If I feel one day that I'd rather connect W HKBH by inventing a new challah recipe I can do that.

Right now I starting to listen to a short daf yomi podcast. No rebellion. No controversy. Just a short podcast.

Enough rabbi's think that it's ok that I don't have to worry about those.who don't. It's all good - eilu veilu divrei Elokim Chayim.
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nylon




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 7:00 pm
In fact, Satmar interpret that verse strictly and don't teach inside any sefer.

I think the overall level of women's learning has taken huge leaps in recent decades. And once you've studied a lot of Tanach and the commentaries and the various forms of teaching TSBP different schools use, then learning Gemara becomes logical because you see how the various forms of text build upon each other. You're also exposed to learning as a framework and see how Gemara study is valued as the highest form.

You can call that feminism, to want to go beyond and study more, but I think a lot of women are really just internalizing communal values about Torah study.
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 9:41 pm
Dear Malki2, to answer your question (and hoping this is not so much PII that s/o is going to say, Hey, I know who you are!)

I started in a coed day school & learned Gemara for about 5 years. Eventually ended up in seminary & married someone who learned in Lakewood yeshivos for over 10 years and is now a Rosh Yeshiva. So that takes care of my qualifications.

Over the years I've tried to learn parsha with Rashi & often looked up Gemaras. Tried to do Nach Yomi & lost track, I hope BSD to start again now that someone has pointed me to a new set of shiurim!

And to be perfectly honest, the reason I picked up the Gemara again more seriously was somewhat of a rebellion. DH was using a certain term in talking to one of my sons & I asked him to define it for me, and he gave me some kind of condescending brushoff. I was annoyed & decided I'll show him, so I took the mesechta he was learning & listened to shiurim on a perek or two. But clearly that wasn't enough to motivate me to actually go through Shas.

I pretty much tried to keep it a secret but DH caught me one day & said, "You can't do that!". I asked him why not. And, OF COURSE!!!! he had to admit that while the Gemara (and Shulchan Oruch, as you cited) discourage men from teaching their daughters, NO WHERE DOES IT SAY A WOMAN MAY NOT LEARN ON HER OWN!

I know there were some women who gave shiurim (from behind a curtain?) such as Asenath Barzani (I'm not taking the time to look up others). So while you may have been taught or picked up the impression that it's forbidden, I highly doubt you will find that stated anywhere.

Last machzor I decided to try Daf Yomi. I listened to all of Brachos while driving, cooking, etc. (I had learned some in HS). I decided I wasn't retaining enough, so for Shabbos I started taking detailed notes & even learned through many of the Maharsha's on Aggadata on my own. But then some things got busy & I put it aside for a while, finally finished with about 1000 pages of notes which I hope to use this time around!

I rejoined this machzor around Chulin, I think. I am now about 20 blatt behind because of YT and some other things, but I am doing my best to do 1 1/2-2 blatt most days so I can catch up.

So yes, there are some real Chareidi women (I hope I may call myself that). I doubt most of us are advocating to add Gemara to the BY curriculum. This is something women who are truly interested can pursue on their own, more likely after their children are grown. (I did try to keep it a secret but by now most of my children know. One of my sons in law even teases me about it...)
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amother




Navy
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 9:57 pm
malki2 wrote:
I can ask my Rav. What I am interested in understand is, in general, is this becoming a “thing” in Frum circles? Did your Rav recommend/permit this? Do others? That’s all I’m trying to find out.

no. it is not becoming a thing. at least not yet.
Just to see how ignorant I am for not hearing about this 'thing' I, frum, living in a development with over 100 frum families, brought up this discussion in our group chat. No one heard of this! Neither did I until reading these threads.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Sun, Jan 05 2020, 10:15 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
no. it is not becoming a thing. at least not yet.
Just to see how ignorant I am for not hearing about this 'thing' I, frum, living in a development with over 100 frum families, brought up this discussion in our group chat. No one heard of this! Neither did I until reading these threads.


Just pointing out that if I were in your development, you still would not know about it. My siblings and Yeshivish friends all have no idea that I have been learning the Daf consistently for the past couple of years, as I am not looking to make any statements and or raise eyebrows in my community. It doesn’t appear to be an accepted thing - like groups of women learning together and/or attending formal shiurim - yet, but with the advent of online shiurim and podcasts, it’s probably more common than you think.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:50 am
nylon wrote:


I think the overall level of women's learning has taken huge leaps in recent decades. And once you've studied a lot of Tanach and the commentaries and the various forms of teaching TSBP different schools use, then learning Gemara becomes logical because you see how the various forms of text build upon each other. You're also exposed to learning as a framework and see how Gemara study is valued as the highest form.

You can call that feminism, to want to go beyond and study more, but I think a lot of women are really just internalizing communal values about Torah study.


This was so perfectly worded.
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amother




Blush
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 10:43 am
The Gemara itself says women arent allowed to learn Gemara
“Anyone who teaches his daughter Torah teaches her tiflus” (Sotah 21b).

https://dinonline.org/2015/11/.....omen/
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Ruchel




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 10:50 am
While that's not exactly forbidding the traditional view is that it's not for girls. I've almost taught in a hs where the only separated course was not sport but gemara (girls didn't do it).
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 11:00 am
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
The Gemara itself says women arent allowed to learn Gemara
“Anyone who teaches his daughter Torah teaches her tiflus” (Sotah 21b).

https://dinonline.org/2015/11/.....omen/


1. That’s not a Halacha: it is one opinion.

2. Even that opinion doesn’t say it’s not allowed.

3. It only applies to a father teaching his daughter, not to other teacher - student relationships

4. There are examples through history of fathers teaching their daughters

5. It is a blanket statement about teaching Torah, not exclusively Gemara , so if you go by that, and you think it applies to girls learning in general, no more Bais Yaakov or day school education for any of our daughters.

It’s an oft quoted argument, but is surprisingly weak. I think those who write teshuvos with that argument know its weakness and use it deliberately; to me it sends the message that we can.
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amother




Blush
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 11:09 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
1. That’s not a Halacha: it is one opinion.

2. Even that opinion doesn’t say it’s not allowed.

3. It only applies to a father teaching his daughter, not to other teacher - student relationships

4. There are examples through history of fathers teaching their daughters

5. It is a blanket statement about teaching Torah, not exclusively Gemara , so if you go by that, and you think it applies to girls learning in general, no more Bais Yaakov or day school education for any of our daughters.

It’s an oft quoted argument, but is surprisingly weak. I think those who write teshuvos with that argument know its weakness and use it deliberately; to me it sends the message that we can.


It says it in the gemara. So you believe the what the Gemara says is old fashioned? Not with the times? So why do you want to learn it?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 11:19 am
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
It says it in the gemara. So you believe the what the Gemara says is old fashioned? Not with the times? So why do you want to learn it?


You’re not reading what I wrote. You seem to be responding to someone else.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 11:25 am
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
The Gemara itself says women arent allowed to learn Gemara
“Anyone who teaches his daughter Torah teaches her tiflus” (Sotah 21b).

https://dinonline.org/2015/11/.....omen/


I challenge you find where the Gemara says exactly that. Furthermore, you might want to continue reading from the point of “Torah Study by Women Themselves” in the source, which you yourself provided, and you will find out that what you are claiming is not accurate.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 11:35 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
Dear Malki2, to answer your question (and hoping this is not so much PII that s/o is going to say, Hey, I know who you are!)

I started in a coed day school & learned Gemara for about 5 years. Eventually ended up in seminary & married someone who learned in Lakewood yeshivos for over 10 years and is now a Rosh Yeshiva. So that takes care of my qualifications.

Over the years I've tried to learn parsha with Rashi & often looked up Gemaras. Tried to do Nach Yomi & lost track, I hope BSD to start again now that someone has pointed me to a new set of shiurim!

And to be perfectly honest, the reason I picked up the Gemara again more seriously was somewhat of a rebellion. DH was using a certain term in talking to one of my sons & I asked him to define it for me, and he gave me some kind of condescending brushoff. I was annoyed & decided I'll show him, so I took the mesechta he was learning & listened to shiurim on a perek or two. But clearly that wasn't enough to motivate me to actually go through Shas.

I pretty much tried to keep it a secret but DH caught me one day & said, "You can't do that!". I asked him why not. And, OF COURSE!!!! he had to admit that while the Gemara (and Shulchan Oruch, as you cited) discourage men from teaching their daughters, NO WHERE DOES IT SAY A WOMAN MAY NOT LEARN ON HER OWN!

I know there were some women who gave shiurim (from behind a curtain?) such as Asenath Barzani (I'm not taking the time to look up others). So while you may have been taught or picked up the impression that it's forbidden, I highly doubt you will find that stated anywhere.

Last machzor I decided to try Daf Yomi. I listened to all of Brachos while driving, cooking, etc. (I had learned some in HS). I decided I wasn't retaining enough, so for Shabbos I started taking detailed notes & even learned through many of the Maharsha's on Aggadata on my own. But then some things got busy & I put it aside for a while, finally finished with about 1000 pages of notes which I hope to use this time around!

I rejoined this machzor around Chulin, I think. I am now about 20 blatt behind because of YT and some other things, but I am doing my best to do 1 1/2-2 blatt most days so I can catch up.

So yes, there are some real Chareidi women (I hope I may call myself that). I doubt most of us are advocating to add Gemara to the BY curriculum. This is something women who are truly interested can pursue on their own, more likely after their children are grown. (I did try to keep it a secret but by now most of my children know. One of my sons in law even teases me about it...)


Hi Pewter. Thanks for your response. It was very interesting to read, and I’ll definitely keep a lookout for you around town Hiding.
But seriously, I definitely hear the distinction between studying the daf on your own and teaching it officially. I’m sure that historically, many have done it, first and foremost Bruriah the wife of R’ Meir. (Although her ending wasn’t too happy...) I’ll admit to looking up a Gemara here and there myself, although not in an official capacity as you have done.
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amother




Blush
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 11:42 am
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
I challenge you find where the Gemara says exactly that. Furthermore, you might want to continue reading from the point of “Torah Study by Women Themselves” in the source, which you yourself provided, and you will find out that what you are claiming is not accurate.


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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 11:51 am
amother [ Blush ] wrote:


The point is that the part you highlighted in yellow does not say that women aren’t allowed to learn Gemara.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:35 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The point is that the part you highlighted in yellow does not say that women aren’t allowed to learn Gemara.


This.

In addition, that statement was addressed upthread and I believe on both other active threads on the topic. I am copying my reply from upthread, but there are other pertinent responses, as well

“There are many interpretations regarding the advice to fathers not to teach their daughters Torah, and one that is commonly held is that fathers should not force it on their daughters, especially when they are young, because the daughters may not take it seriously, and it may lead to a bad outcome, however a girl/woman of good character, who actively seeks Torah learning is not assumed to be in the category of one who will not take it seriously. In addition, I have never seen anywhere that a woman is prohibited from learning on her own, or that someone else is prohibited to teach her. Also, even with regard to fathers, there are differences of opinion - e.g. Ben Azzai held that a father is required to teach his daughter(s) Torah (although that has not become the accepted position.)”
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 09 2020, 6:15 am
PinkFridge wrote:


As women, we don't have the mitzvah of limud Torah and ameilus. But we are responsible to be connected to Torah. We don't need to say, we've seen every daf. Do we need to say we've seen every page of Torah shebiksav? I don't think so either, but that would be a really amazing goal. For me, that kind of learning is more satisfying.


PinkFridge, I meant to respond to this post earlier but didn't have a chance and then forgot.

Regarding the bolded, I do think it should be a goal for us to see every page of Torah shebichtav. In fact, there is a project dedicated to that, the 929 project, also known as Tanach B'yachad. There are 929 chapters/perakim in Tanach: the idea is to do 5 perakim a week (one each day except for Friday and Shabbat, which makes things a lot easier). That's 260 perakim a year, which means the cycle gets completed in around 3.5 years.

I tried it, but didn't continue. The reason for me was that I've been doing a lot of Tanach anyway, and have done most of it at at least some level. What I really need to focus on are Daniel, Ezra, and Nechemia (difficult for me because of all the Aramaic), as well as some of the Trei Asar (no good reason for me not to have done those). So I'm working through those slowly, but at my own pace, because it's more meaningful to me that way. And because for Tanach I have a good chance of getting that done even without a "Yomi" program, which is not the case for Gemara. (For that, I know that I have to do Daf Yomi or something similar to get there.)

But yes, I do have the goal of having familiarity -- more than a passing familiarity -- with all of Tanach. Of course! That's the core of Judaism!

For those who are interested, the website is at https://www.929.org.il/pages/aboutEN.html .
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