S/O Feminism | Imamother

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:20 pm

Growing up, I've always heard that feminism is that enemy, the big bad wolf, so to speak, of Jewish woman.

As an adult, I've done a bit of research and while I'm finding that I DO agree with a lot of what feminism has tried to accomplish. I acknowledge that not everything has been all fine and wonderful in the feminist movement, and feminism today has become so radicalized that most women today do not necessarily identify with the feminist movement any longer, but even so, I see so much that has helped all of us.

Why are we so against feminism? What is the Chareidi Orthodox position on all this?

Please help me understand!

malki2

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think that the origin of the Feminist movement was based on not understanding the particular strengths and unique abilities of women, but rather in terms of women being looked at as the “weaker” s@x. The movement was therefore made to say that anything that a man can do, a woman can do. But there is a mistake in the actual premise. Importance was not given to the main tafkid of a woman, which only she can do and not a man, which is to bring Neshsmos into the world and to build and raise them into people. To answer your question, I think that the Charedi Orthodox position always has been one of respect of the woman’s position in the home as equally important to, but different from, the man’s. So there was never this “inferiority complex” which required the fitting of a round peg into a square hole, which has let to some of the degradation in our society.

Last edited by malki2 on Sun, Jan 05 2020, 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

gingertop

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 2:39 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

My theories:

- The frum world went through A LOT of trauma in the end of 19th century, early 20th. One way of dealing with any movements that threatened or would potentially threaten frum life was to become reactionary to those movements.

So the maskilim made a big deal about proper Hebrew and Nach- some yeshivas (especially chassidish, I think) reacted by davka not learning dikduk and Nach.

Feminism made a big deal about women having equal rights- even where the feminists did not have any substantial disagreements with frum life- it became verboten.

-A lot of feminists were arguing against x-tian, conservative hegemony. Attacking religion is something that scares frum people. Attacking religious patriarchy is dangerous for religious patriarchy.

-It seemed untznius. It was in effect untznius. Women marching in the streets, going to college- this is before the days of TTI!- would lead to all sorts of problems, and it did.

amother

Ruby

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 4:31 pm

I don’t particularly identify with the feminist “movement,” but I don’t understand people - especially women - being against the concept of feminism, itself - which as I’ve heard it explained, is the radical notion that women are people too.

I think many people today don’t understand that without feminism, we would not be allowed to vote, attend colleges/universities, hold well-paying jobs outside the home, be able to open our own bank accounts, have our own credit cards, own our own property. . . The list is endless. . . We owe a debt of gratitude to feminism for many (most?) of the rights and freedoms that we take for granted today, and I (for one) am grateful.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 5:42 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Because it threatened the foundation of a Jewish home. A jewish home was defined as the husband being the ba Habayis, and the wife being subservient to him (or we can rephrase that to what we're taught - that the women is there to help and guide him). Either way, if a man and woman were to be considered equal, then a husband and wife are considered equal, and that would undermine the traditional setup of a Jewish home.

amother

Ruby

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 5:56 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

In my home, we are considered equal partners. Neither of us is subservient to the other, and both of us feel equally respected. We have a good, Jewish home, with shalom bayis, solid values, and adherence to Halacha. Our children are B”H metzuyanim - in every sense of the word. I don’t see that subservience is a necessary component in a Jewish marriage/family, and if it took feminism to allow me to be an equal partner - then I’m grateful for it.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 5:58 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Likewise, I'm grateful too. But yes it took feminism to allow this.

amother

Ruby

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 6:18 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

To me feminism is when women think they are equal to men and can do all what men can! And in there marriage they don’t have woman jobs! Differentiate yourself I’m a woman and I’m proud of it, I’m not trying to compete against a man and His jobs and I don’t want him interfering in my jobs!

I do think (most) women can do all that (most) men can, although they may not want to. I personally hate housework - cooking, cleaning, baking etc. (If I lived alone, I would not own a set of pots.) I do cook and clean, however, because I want my family to have food and a clean house. On the other hand, I work full time at a professional job, and I am the main breadwinner in our family. (DH is a long-term learner.) I also pay the bills, balance the checkbook, do the taxes, etc. DH enjoys cooking more than I do, and I have no objection to him doing so. I don’t consider it “interfering in my jobs.” We both put a lot of effort into raising and spending quality time with our kids. In our home, roles and activities are defined by interest and aptitude, rather than solely by gender, and we are both/all happy with that.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 6:28 pm

lilies wrote:

How not?

Seriously? A man's word was the law of the house. If there was a conflict of opinion, it was the man who had his way. Men ruled over the house, all property acquired by a woman belongs to her husband. Women's employment were mostly in low status jobs. Women were considered to be less intelligent & the weaker gender. Women were not to hold any political offices.

And just look at the Torah laws - aren't they based on patriarchy?

lilies

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 6:54 pm

Subservient by definition is to obey others unquestioningly/be less important. That has never been the Torah way. You are defining certain positions or jobs as more powerful than others. They are just different, not more or less subservient. I think that's the modern interpretation applied backwards. Washing dishes is seen as low-class labor, while being a lawyer is considered a high-powered job. Why? Would you say the jobs of Kohanim in the Beis Hamikdash were menial? According the modern views, probably. Were the Kohanim considered subservient to the Yisraelim because they didn't go out to earn their own money/food? They were busy cooking and cleaning all day.

amother

Ruby

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 7:16 pm

lilies wrote:

Sorry for jumping in - I’m trying to hold myself back - but the comparison of the woman’s role to the role of the kohen (with all its associated respect and privileges) is wildly inaccurate. The work may be the same, but the respect and importance accorded to it, is far from it. . . The kohanim were highly respected and honored (e.g. first aliyah, leading zimun, having their lives deemed more valuable so saved first, etc.) for their work. Not so for women (who are not even included - let alone honored, and would be saved last . . .)

And as far as subservience goes - Just look at the well-known parameters of Jewish marriage, as expressed by the Rambam. (Quotation upon request.) The wife is clearly subservient (as per your own definition) and not as important. In fact the wife is exempted by the chachamim from important mitzvos (e.g. kibbud av v’eim), because due to her subservience to her husband, she does not have the right to make her own decisions regarding how to spend her own time . . .

amother

Apricot

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 7:24 pm

lilies wrote:

Your analogy is flawed. When serving a king, all regulars assumptions go out the window. Both then and now. It's considered an honor, no matter what the job is. And its not me who's defining positions, it's the way of the world. There are certain positions that are held in higher esteem than others. A lawyer was and is (and rightly so) is held in higher esteem than washing dishes. You ask why? A lawyer needs intellect, years of study & skill to be effective, but anyone can wash dishes. I think that's self explanatory. But up till recently it was only males who were allowed to be lawyers.

It always has been a man's world, where the men were given the high powered position, & the women's job was to serve and assist the men. Being the breadwinner of the family & the Bal Habayis was always the higher position, than the women who cooked, cleaned & served the meals. Women's word held no weight, women's opinion did not matter & prestigious positions were reserved for males. And the Torah follows suit.

It's only recently that all this has changed where women's opinions matter & their skills & capabilities are being considered along with the other gender. History has always been a patriarchal society, and it's the rare person who counters that.

lilies

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 7:28 pm

I don't know the actual sources, many others are better versed in those. Please chime in with quotes!
You are stating that the Kohanim get respect and honored. But it's not for their work, it's because they were chosen to be Kohanim. So yes, they get honored. In essence, their work is just work. It isn't menial at all. It happens to be holy. Same for women, our jobs/roles are in essence holy. It is only in modern times, certain aspects that have traditionally been the woman's role have a connotation of menial, when it in fact isn't. All things done in this world with the right intentions are holy. Makes no difference if that's washing dishes, or being a surgeon.
I do not know the Rambam, so I will not comment on that.
Why are you saying that an exempt wife is proof of unimportance? Again, modern definition. Who said that it is preferable to be non-exempt?

lilies

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 7:31 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

It always has been a man's world, where the men were given the high powered position, & the women's job was to serve and assist the men. Being the breadwinner of the family & the Bal Habayis was always the higher position, than the women who cooked, cleaned & served the meals. Women's word held no weight, women's opinion did not matter & prestigious positions were reserved for males. And the Torah follows suit.

It's only recently that all this has changed where women's opinions matter & their skills & capabilities are being considered along with the other gender. History has always been a patriarchal society, and it's the rare person who counters that.

That is borderline apikorsus.
Torah does not follow suit on anything. Everything in this world follows the Torah.
As far as serving a king, are women not serving Hashem? Scratching Head

Do you believe in the Torah?

amother

Ruby

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 7:33 pm

lilies wrote:

וְכֵן צִוּוּ עַל הָאִשָּׁה שֶׁתִּהְיֶה מְכַבֶּדֶת אֶת בַּעְלָהּ בְּיוֹתֵר מִדַּאי וְיִהְיֶה עָלֶיהָ מוֹרָא מִמֶּנּוּ וְתַעֲשֶׂה כָּל מַעֲשֶׂיהָ עַל פִּיו. וְיִהְיֶה בְּעֵינֶיהָ כְּמוֹ שַׂר אוֹ מֶלֶךְ. מְהַלֶּכֶת בְּתַאֲוַת לִבּוֹ וּמַרְחֶקֶת כָּל מַה שֶּׁיִּשְׂנָא. וְזֶה דֶּרֶךְ בְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל וּבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הַקְּדוֹשִׁים וְהַטְּהוֹרִים בְּזִוּוּגָן. וּבִדְרָכִים אֵלּוּ יִהְיֶה יִשּׁוּבָן נָאֶה וּמְשֻׁבָּח:

Thus the Sages commanded: A woman should honor her husband too much, and have awe of him, do all of her actions according to his word. He should seem to her like a minister or king, walking in the desires of his heart, and distancing herself from what he hates. This is how holy and pure Jews behave in their marriages. These paths should be their pleasant and praiseworthy lifestyle.

Source: Mishna Torah l’Rambam: Ishus 15:20