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Holocaust, and the book Rise and Kill First

 
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 07 2020, 3:01 pm
So full disclosure: I have grandparents who lived through the Holocaust, including one who fought the Nazis in his own way.

I was reading the book, Rise and Kill First, which is a book about Mossad and some of its missions, and everyone has been lauding this book. And yet there's a phrase that keeps getting stuck in my mind. It's where some Russian turned army-man Jew goes to a concentration camp that's been liberated, and he was appalled that there were ten thousand prisoners in that camp, and just a few guards. He couldn't believe that none of them even tried to fight back against their captors, and he had more than a little disgust for them. And he was a Russian Jew, not American.

Now, look. I'm not a young idiot. I was raised on the Holocaust, and I read all the books, watched all the movies. I know that it was like a frog placed in cold water on top of an stove - by the time the water was too hot, the frog had acclimated and died. The anti-semitism for most was a slow burn. And, of course, God was involved, and the curse that the few will overpower the many certainly rings true here.

But this phrase is haunting me. What if he's not wrong? I guess the real reason behind it is that they knew that the world beyond the fence wasn't any more welcoming. But he was there and I was not, and I wonder what it is he saw that's different from our glance back in the rearview mirror.

This is just a discussion - this isn't an indictment. Could we have fought back and saved more lives?
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amother




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Post  Tue, Jan 07 2020, 3:14 pm
Im all for fighting back however this really is more analogous to the frog mashal. I also think while you didn't mean it this way it is terrible victim blaming for psychological reasons beyond my pay grade.
Please do not dishonor our people by giving any credence to this theory. When Jews could fight back we did.
Look at the pictures.
We were disarmed starved sick and tortured against well fed well oiled well weaponed fighting machine. And more.
We and our families and babies were hostages tortured physically and psychologically daily for years in ways no one can or should be able to imagine. No other group in that set of circumstances would have done better either.
Rachmanus please.

The only ones who I would look at to fight back more would have been all the governments etc and people in a position to do so. Not us.
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leah233




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 07 2020, 3:29 pm
In theory it may have been a good idea to fight. Realistically they didn't really have that option. Not knowing with certainty that they were going to be killed it was much riskier to fight with the guards than not too.

When you had a starving unarmed group against an armed group of trained fighters and the armed group had the option to bring in reinforcements and stronger weapons, What are the chances the starving unarmed group could win? Even if they would have won, then what? They had nowhere to go to take refuge. They were still marked for death wherever they would have gone.

Furthermore large vicious reprisals would have been taken against all Jews even those who weren't being deported yet.

Take the vaunted Warsaw ghetto uprising. In the end only about ten Nazis were killed. How many Jewish lives were clearly saved? Not that I don't agree with the uprising but the end the results were about the same with or without it.

The Nazis starved the Russian POWS to death too. Despite being trained fighters they didn't fight back or resist either.
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trixx




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 07 2020, 3:52 pm
I think most of the survivors decided to survive against all odds and continue the Jewish nation as their revenge. That takes a lot of psychological strength.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 07 2020, 4:06 pm
leah233 wrote:

Take the vaunted Warsaw ghetto uprising. In the end only about ten Nazis were killed. How many Jewish lives were clearly saved? Not that I don't agree with the uprising but the end the results were about the same with or without it.

The Nazis starved the Russian POWS to death too. Despite being trained fighters they didn't fight back or resist either.


Interesting last point. That's so true, didn't remember that. As to the Warsaw ghetto, it's interesting what the world chooses to glorify - we all know about the Jews' last stand. And it's interesting that it was the Warsaw uprising that spurred another one - the Treblinka uprising. 70 of the 300 or so who escaped lived, but the remaining camp inmates were all killed. So it's hard to say, especially Monday Morning Quarterbacking - is it worth it? For some, the hope that was achieved by rising up helped. But for others, it was followed by retribution.

It's what the Israel state really was founded on - the theory that fighting back is the only stance that helps. And maybe it does? Maybe all the times we fight back against terrorists in Israel is what gives us hope, even if it does spur more violence.

I feel guilty starting this thread. Again, I'm not indicting those that didn't fight back. I'm a weakling, I can't even stand up to the crazy person who shouts at me from the car next to me.
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