Down Syndrome in certain Chasidish Groups

malki2

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:02 pm

[quote="amother [ cornflower ]"]

malki2 wrote:

I’m sorry, but I think that’s horrible. I thought that as Jews we believe that all neshamos are special. And especially DS and other special children are supposed to have extra holy neshamos. So if Hashem gives a family one of those children, how could they give it away???[/quote

This is so judgemental. Do you have any children with special needs? Do you understand what is involved in raising a child with special needs?

I do not think that the rebbi should make a blanket rule whether families can or cannot keep their child. But I do believe that it is up to the parents to make the choice.

Sorry I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t judging the parents, but the decision of the Rebbis. And no, I do not have a special needs child, but I do have a sibling with a child with DS.

ectomorph

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:06 pm

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

Is there a blanket rule regarding not keeping DS children or is an individual situation evaluated.

I am curious because obviously some individual situations would have difficulties while others wouldn't. I would imagine that whatever community there is would be some families who couldn't deal with it. Of course outside the religious world, the incidence of DS births is far lower so it's moot since those who wouldn't or couldn't deal generally would have an abortion.

If there is a blanket rule what is the justification in terms of other adoptive parents being better suited?

Unlike some posts here, there is no blanket rule. In any chassidus. There are DS kids in every chassidus.

I can imagine that parents would rather say they were forced than chose to do it.

But the idea is that not everyone can handle severe special needs. As the mom of a mildly special child myself, I can tell you that without enormous support I'd go crazy.

Someone who volunteers to adopt has the ability to take care of a kid who may need to be in the hospital etc. A mom of 10 kids may not be able to do that as well.

Sunny Days

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:22 pm

Mama Bear, you can’t compare situations to what you went through.

How does a family with a nb baby with ds know it will be more difficult than raising a child with adhd or having a child with cancer or whatever.
I’m not expressing myself right here but I’m very passionate about it... a family who is faced with a dx of ds is in shock and yes, the road ahead will not be all roses but to have the blanket statement that “it breaks a shtib” is unfair to families who are willing to accept the challenge and try there best yet are emotionally pushed to give the child up- disregarding the family circumstances/dynamics.
From what I understand in those communities where it’s the “norm” to place children with ds you consult the rebbi for every little step in your life so mama bear I’m not sure it means that only those who want a ‘bracha’ on placing their child consult.
kuddos to the families who embrace their precious child despite and lovingly raise them.
And it’s still beyond my comprehension why it’s ok to raise your neighbors or friends child with ds but not your own What

speaking as a sib and parent of complex needs

SuperWify

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:35 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I'm sorry, but I'm coming from the other side of this. The parents who made the decision to place their special needs children do NOT need to read all the judgement and negativity towards them, esp in the DS magazine. Do you think they made this decision easily? Do you think they don't lay in bed at night crying about it, missing their child, feeling guilty, but knowing that their family would fall apart if they hadn't taken this step? Even with support, even with resources, not every woman, not every family, is equipped for it. The 3 families I know that had to make this decision, were women in their 40s who had 10+ children. The child would never get what he or she needed in such an environment and are a lot better off where they are. And this doesnt mean the parents are just going on their flippant way and not caring about , thinking about, worrying about their child all the time. Those decisions are not made lightly.

The ppl I'm thinking of are Satmar ppl, not Skver. I dont think Satmar has a blanket 'shitta' to place all DS babies; every family makes their own decision after careful deliberation and consideration. Family dynamics are different, and sometimes the husband is not supportive, sometimes the mom cannot handle it emotionally. Or it's a very busy family and the DS child will not get what he or she needs at home. It's an individual case by case basis.

The last thing such parents need is to read other people condemning them. They feel bad about it as it is in the first place.

No one is condemning the parents. We are questing the Rebbes who pressure the parents into giving the children away.

SuperWify

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:37 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

There isnt a blanket rule.
However if someone is already going to their Rebbe to ask that already means that theyre not feeling capable of doing it. If they were, they wouldnt even ask the question. They are usually coming to their Rebbe for reassurance that they are doing the right thing.

By condemning and judging I didnt mean all of you in the thread, but the constant letters in the Down Syndrome magazine. I hope those women dont' read the magazine. They don't need the guilt on top of the pain they're feeling.

I can tell you this as a mother of a child who isnt living at home (again, my situaton is different, my son was 8 and our family was in complete chaos bc of him): the mothers whose children are placed are in a ton of emotional pain. They don't have it any easier than the mothers who kept their children. They did it for their spouses, their families, and their own mental health.

Hugs that’s extremely painful Sad

I hope I didn’t add pain by straing this thread. I’m talking of the families that think they can do it but the Rebbes pressure them into giving the baby away.

amother

Firebrick

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:54 pm

In the chassidish groups where they generally give the child away, the answer will generally be to give the child away. I know some posters are saying the Rebbe knows more about each family and makes the decision individually, but I have to strongly disagree. In these communities, it is rare to keep a DS child. Not for lack of desire or capability. No one knows when a DS child is born, if the child will be high functioning or not. The people there ask the Rebbe because that's what they do with every decision that make. Although most of them know they'll be told to give the child away. Many do not even bring the child home from the hospital. I'm sorry, buy there is no way to sugarcoat this. I know families that were/are very functional and gave the child away because that's what they were told. One was a first time mother and one had one child already. Both had endless time to devote to their DS child. Both have experienced so much heartbreak about not having their child with them.

amother

Amethyst

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:18 pm

I think that this thinking is old fashioned and only a blanket decision by certain chassidus.
There are much more resources and less taboo nower days about it.
I know someone who the rebbe told her to give away her baby. Last minute she chickened out and raises the kid who is amazingly sweet and high functioning.
Personally, I have a child with something much more severe than downs syndrome and I consider her to be the biggest bracha. Yes it's hard, but it's the attitude. My other kids are the most caring and sensitive souls. No, I wont have 10plus kids because of this but if this is what hashem gave me then this is what I need to do just like with any other "problem" in life.

amother

Sienna

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:19 pm

This topic touches every core of my being.
I am totally giving myself away with this message but I will be open in order to clarify this issue. Talking about it first hand.
First, there are several Rebbi's and Mashpiim that 'tell' you to give a baby away, as soon as they hear the word Down Syndrome. Regardless of who the parents are. They give their advice to everyone across the board, even if the parents don't ask for their opinions. When a parent calls their Rebbi saying that they have birth to a baby (with Down syndrome) and want a brocha, He would give his advice to just give the child away.
I am part of a chasidus where Down syndrome= give up baby.
I have several other children with (different) special needs. Some have behavioral/learning disabilities, mental illness, medical condition.
I didn't feel like giving my gorgeous child with DS away, I knew right away after taking testing that he is a healthy child bh. My delicious son with Downs is the easiest of all and gives us such Nachas bh. (I did discuss it with our Rebbi, and was given the go ahead to keep her home).
Our other children are the ones who take out all my energy and twist my kishkas inside out. They ruin the calmness in the home.
There are much more difficult diagnoses that cost much more koach and ruin the other kids. I never heard that the child with DS ruined the household. And you know what? Even If it does, Hashem gave this challenge to them, he already made this decision by giving this family this precious neshama.
If a family can't handle it, why do they have more children? Why not give away any other complicated child?
The same time I gave birth to my yummy daughter with DS, another overwhelmed mother gave birth to twins. This mother had tons of tiny children one after another and she couldn't handle it. It affected her sanity, she couldn't cope. She wasn't asked or forced to give away her children, I was (while I'm bh very capable)! Her twins won't affect her family???? It already did!
A child with different difficult disabilities or child with cancer doesn't affect a family??? Why is a sweet healthy child with DS different?
NO PARENT (99.9% don't) 'offer' to give away their delicious newborn baby with DS on their own. They are basically being 'recommended' by their mashpia/Rebbi, They feel forced into it, or are afraid of the unknown and take the 'advice' as a psak Halacha. What

Oh, I need to add that my other children became the most compassionate children and care about others much more than other children.
They love love love my child with Down syndrome like crazy. He is the highlight of the family!!!

southernbubby

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:20 pm

I'm glad that I wasn't given that test because I would have failed it. I probably would have said goodbye to the Rebbe and the Chassidis. I don't know the inner workings of these situations but possibly it comes from a belief that there was a spiritual problem during conception and therefore it is a mitzvah for someone else to raise the child but not the original parents. I don't think that it relates much to the actual challenges of raising a DS child because the child is being kept in the community by others who have the mitzvah of raising the child.
I kinda wonder if these are the same Rebbes who took a very long time to accept the psychological damage that occurred with child molestation and don't realize the damages that this policy does to mothers.
Are they oblivious to psychology?

Sunny Days

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:23 pm

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

This topic touches every core of my being.
I am totally giving myself away with this message but I will be open in order to clarify this issue. Talking about it first hand.
First, there are several Rebbi's and Mashpiim that 'tell' you to give a baby away, as soon as they hear the word Down Syndrome. Regardless of who the parents are. They give their advice to everyone across the board, even if the parents don't ask for their opinions. When a parent calls their Rebbi saying that they have birth to a baby (with Down syndrome) and want a brocha, He would give his advice to just give the child away.
I am part of a chasidus where Down syndrome= give up baby.
I have several other children with (different) special needs. Some have behavioral/learning disabilities, mental illness, medical condition.
I didn't feel like giving my gorgeous child with DS away, I knew right away after taking testing that he is a healthy child bh. My delicious son with Downs is the easiest of all and gives us such Nachas bh.
Our other children are the ones who take out all my energy and twist my kishkas inside out. They ruin the calmness in the home.
There are much more difficult diagnoses that cost much more koach and ruin the other kids. I never heard that the child with DS ruined the household. And you know what? Even If it does, Hashem gave this challenge to them, he already made this decision by giving this family this precious neshama.
If a family can't handle it, why do they have more children? Why not give away any other complicated child?
The same time I gave birth to my yummy daughter with DS, another overwhelmed mother gave birth to twins. This mother had tons of tiny children one after another and she couldn't handle it. It affected her sanity, she couldn't cope. She wasn't asked or forced to give away her children, I was (while I'm bh very capable)! Her twins won't affect her family???? It already did!
A child with different difficult disabilities or child with cancer doesn't affect a family??? Why is a sweet healthy child with DS different?
NO PARENT (99.9% don't) 'offer' to give away their delicious newborn baby with DS on their own. They are basically being 'recommended' by their mashpia/Rebbi, They feel forced into it, or are afraid of the unknown and take the 'advice' as a psak Halacha. What

Thanks for sharing sienna. This is what I meant in part of my post, I just wasn’t so expressive...

downsyndrome

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:26 pm

For every example of why it was supposedly necessary to give away a child with DS, I can list 25 examples of families that have done it against their wishes and are regretting it forever or have become dysfunctional because the parent/s is/are in a constant state of depression, grieving the given-away child.

It is an absolutely sick mentality to give birth to our children and immediately consider the 'option' of whether to keep or give away. Sick, sick, sick!! Beyond sick and evil. And yes, I do condemn. Anybody who has a large family and cannot devote herself to her child, should not have children anymore! There is no mitzvah in having dozens of babies and keeping and disposing of by choice. This is not what Hashem wants and this is not a normal motherly reaction!

Sorry, Mama Bear, no matter what you write, I will never agree with you. Please don't compare your situation here at all. Stick to Down syndrome and know your facts. Children with DS do NOT break up families! Those families were broken before this child was born and there shouldn't have been another baby born into such a household.

Stars

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:32 pm

downsyndrome wrote:

I applaud you and every word of this post. Thank you for chiming in here.

amother

Azure

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:52 pm

Librarian wrote:

Someone from one of the chassidus mentioned in these posts told me that their Rebbe advises anyone who comes to ASK if they should give their DS child to do so. Because the people who don't want to, don't come to ask. I don't know if this is true, that is why I am not saying which chassidus specifically.

Yes yes yes a million times.
It makes a parent ( understandably so) feel better being able to say” we were told by our rebbe to give our child away”

If a parent went in and said we are keeping this child we only came for a bracha, the rebbe would not say to give it away.
Please don’t blame the rebbes for this( don’t worry there’s enough blame aimed at them)
And when they do suggest it, it’s because they know the dynamics of this family from the past.