Down Syndrome in certain Chasidish Groups

Mama Bear

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:53 pm

I am not comparing my situation to the situation of a Down Syndrome newborn baby at all.

But I do know a few parents of DS babies who made the educated decision after considering all factors. They didn't make the decision lightly. And I'm hoping they don't read DS magazine or talk to ppl like in this thread, bc it woud pour salt on their wounds. They didn't make the decision easily.

However Sarah you know a lot more ppl with DS kids than I do, and I 100% believe you that there are many, many parents who regret the decision. I am not disagreeing with you.

I also don't like the idea that there are Rebbes who will automatically say 'yes, give away'.

This is a very complicated topic and I think we really cannot judge.

I don't like this discussion at all.

I'm outta here.

(no, this topic didn't cause me any pain, there isn't one human being on the planet who doesn't think we did the right thing, it's not the same situation at all. I was just speaking about a few others who I know. I never said that every DS baby will destroy a house, ch'v, I dont know why someone thinks I said that. I said, it's individual to every family and we shouldn't judge those who made this very, very difficult decision. They did not make it lightly.)

Mama Bear

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:56 pm

P.S. DS kids do not go into any 'institutions' but to other loving families. My best friend has gone through infertility and has a child with special needs and has so much love to give and a handful of grown children. She is raising a delicious little girl with Down Syndrome. The baby has been in and out of the hospital. The mother of this baby is overwhelmed with a large family and it has been the greatet bracha that my friend who has a heart of gold and smitten with this baby is giving her all the time in the world she has. The baby is on a golden tray in that house. Gets every therapy on the planet. The family is in touch and involved. It's no institution. It's the best of all worlds for this child and both families.

There are many sides to every coin. There's no black and white here.

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:00 am

I've seen families who took in DS children who have large families of their own and are exhausted and overwhelmed themselves.

Please tell me how that family taking in a DS child makes more sense that a first time mother who has all the time in the world to devote to her DS child.

Oh, right. It DOESN'T make sense.

I believe the Rebbe's that 'pasken' this way are stuck in the old ages, and no one in the community stands up for a change. It's a disgrace. People should stand up to it and refuse to give their DS children away.

flowerpower

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:26 am

I really should not chime in here because I bh don’t understand. I keep asking why parents that give birth to a baby that has down syndrome even consider giving it away. If they have large families and are overwhelmed then they should take birth control period! Before conceiving any kind of baby. People always tell me that I can’t judge when I ask them this question. Well.. to give up their own baby an hour after giving birth just sounds cold and heartless. I should never know the feeling!!!!

I know a few viznitz families that kept their baby no questions asked. So it really isn’t a strong rule there.

2ringsnow

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:30 am

7 years ago when my daughter with DS was born 9.5 months after my wedding, the first thing my in laws suggested was that we give her away , they had people call us and tell us not to ruin our life and start our life out like this. I was furious! It did not even think in that direction! I was 20 years old , but said if hashem gave me this child , he will give me strength to deal with the situation. We were told that we have to write a letter to our rebbe and ask him what to do, I told my husband no matter the answer I am not giving up this precious baby ! We worded the letter that I want to keep the baby. The letter we got back said that the problem isn't now and it might get harder as she gets older. So I just took it as I wanted. If the rebbi tells that to everyone asking then it's up to the parents I guess to make the final decision. Maybe it's because I'm young , but I believe that it is extremely old fashioned to even consider giving up your child because one day it might get hard to raise him/ her . Now my in laws are in love with my daughter and it has definitely opened their eyes to a new world of acceptance and of deep love. I still cry every time I hear of someone that gave away their child. It's heartbreaking

gold21

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:40 am

flowerpower wrote:

I agree.

I'm not familiar with this chassidish practice, but I would ask- why not encourage the chassidish women of these sects to use birth control from 40 plus, or (a little extreme, but, hey-) 35 plus, since the risk of DS goes up. If raising a DS child is outlawed, perhaps this option should be explored.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:15 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I'm sorry, but I'm coming from the other side of this. The parents who made the decision to place their special needs children do NOT need to read all the judgement and negativity towards them, esp in the DS magazine. Do you think they made this decision easily? Do you think they don't lay in bed at night crying about it, missing their child, feeling guilty, but knowing that their family would fall apart if they hadn't taken this step? Even with support, even with resources, not every woman, not every family, is equipped for it. The 3 families I know that had to make this decision, were women in their 40s who had 10+ children. The child would never get what he or she needed in such an environment and are a lot better off where they are. And this doesnt mean the parents are just going on their flippant way and not caring about , thinking about, worrying about their child all the time. Those decisions are not made lightly.

The ppl I'm thinking of are Satmar ppl, not Skver. I dont think Satmar has a blanket 'shitta' to place all DS babies; every family makes their own decision after careful deliberation and consideration. Family dynamics are different, and sometimes the husband is not supportive, sometimes the mom cannot handle it emotionally. Or it's a very busy family and the DS child will not get what he or she needs at home. It's an individual case by case basis.

The last thing such parents need is to read other people condemning them. They feel bad about it as it is in the first place.

So what I don’t get is this.....

Replace child with DS with pregnancy....in all the situations you mentioned, if someone would pursue abortion because they’re on their 12th child or because they have a busy family (??) or because they’re not up to the task or whatever, they would likely get tremendous pushback for that. Im not asking to be challenging; I’m trying to understand what the difference is. As someone who is close, both biologically and otherwise, to families with kids with DS, there are varying levels of physical and mental impairment and many are incredibly high functioning and no one will know what their “pekele” is unless they actually give it a go for some amount of time.

amother

Green

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:18 am

I am in no way judging or condemning anyone. I just want to make a point to say that parents that feel they cannot handle the situation, do NOT give up the child. Parents are constantly in touch with the adoptive or foster parents. They visit often, make medical decisions etc. They also take out the child to give him or her their love. It is not like they just give the child away and lock it out of their conscience.
And, by now , plenty parents are raising lovingly their children with DS, definitely, enhancing the decision due to raising awareness by the super special Mom Surika S.

ectomorph

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:27 am

Most children born at age 46 are healthy and normal. We shouldn't kill all those babies because some might be special - that's what Amram suggested in response to Paroh saying to throw all the babies in the river. However, there needs to be an escape hatch - at all ages - because the fact is that not everyone can handle a severe special needs kids, which most DS are. (not all. But there is definitely a very high chance).

I actually think it's a good balance. It values everyone's life. Everyone saying people are forced are anonymous, and frankly I don't know any cases like that in real life. I do know people who say they were forced to avoid judgment.

The family doesn't lose touch and usually checks on the kid and has a relationship, and the adoptive family has more resources.

SuperWify

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:31 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

This topic touches every core of my being.
I am totally giving myself away with this message but I will be open in order to clarify this issue. Talking about it first hand.
First, there are several Rebbi's and Mashpiim that 'tell' you to give a baby away, as soon as they hear the word Down Syndrome. Regardless of who the parents are. They give their advice to everyone across the board, even if the parents don't ask for their opinions. When a parent calls their Rebbi saying that they have birth to a baby (with Down syndrome) and want a brocha, He would give his advice to just give the child away.
I am part of a chasidus where Down syndrome= give up baby.
I have several other children with (different) special needs. Some have behavioral/learning disabilities, mental illness, medical condition.
I didn't feel like giving my gorgeous child with DS away, I knew right away after taking testing that he is a healthy child bh. My delicious son with Downs is the easiest of all and gives us such Nachas bh. (I did discuss it with our Rebbi, and was given the go ahead to keep her home).
Our other children are the ones who take out all my energy and twist my kishkas inside out. They ruin the calmness in the home.
There are much more difficult diagnoses that cost much more koach and ruin the other kids. I never heard that the child with DS ruined the household. And you know what? Even If it does, Hashem gave this challenge to them, he already made this decision by giving this family this precious neshama.
If a family can't handle it, why do they have more children? Why not give away any other complicated child?
The same time I gave birth to my yummy daughter with DS, another overwhelmed mother gave birth to twins. This mother had tons of tiny children one after another and she couldn't handle it. It affected her sanity, she couldn't cope. She wasn't asked or forced to give away her children, I was (while I'm bh very capable)! Her twins won't affect her family???? It already did!
A child with different difficult disabilities or child with cancer doesn't affect a family??? Why is a sweet healthy child with DS different?
NO PARENT (99.9% don't) 'offer' to give away their delicious newborn baby with DS on their own. They are basically being 'recommended' by their mashpia/Rebbi, They feel forced into it, or are afraid of the unknown and take the 'advice' as a psak Halacha. What

Oh, I need to add that my other children became the most compassionate children and care about others much more than other children.
They love love love my child with Down syndrome like crazy. He is the highlight of the family!!!

Thank you so much for beautifully articulating what was making me so upset. A child with DS is no less your child then any other child. Why should that child be given up over any other child?

May Hashem bentch you with much continued loach to raise all your children!

SuperWify

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:37 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Yes yes yes a million times.
It makes a parent ( understandably so) feel better being able to say” we were told by our rebbe to give our child away”

If a parent went in and said we are keeping this child we only came for a bracha, the rebbe would not say to give it away.
Please don’t blame the rebbes for this( don’t worry there’s enough blame aimed at them)
And when they do suggest it, it’s because they know the dynamics of this family from the past.

Yes but in my world it’s not even an option. Unless a child needs 24/7 care Like a vegetable cvs- no one is looking or thinking of giving away their children. It’s not an option. You have the child- it’s your responsibility to give the child what they need no matter how needy they are.

In Chasidish world it seems like it has become a norm almost.

amother

Pink

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:39 am

ectomorph wrote:

What is a good balance?

In case you missed it, this thread is NOT about parents deciding that they don't have the resources to raise a child. It's about someone else making the decision for them.