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What would you consider a tragedy?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:26 pm
My friend and I were having a discussion. I tried to explain to her that I didn't think of a specific woman I knew as a "nebach" who had a child with Down syndrome at the age of 46 (child #14- and yes, she gave up the child, but that's for that other thread....). I just miscarried a week ago. Using that as an example, I explained that I don't think of my early miscarriage as a tragedy. I was devastated, but in my opinion it's not a tragedy. Children with DS bring a lot of simcha into a home. I hope I never have that nisayon, and perhaps I can't judge, but would you classify giving birth to a child with DS as a tragedy? Losing a child or other loved ones r"l is a tragedy. Being childless is a tragedy. Experiencing a stillbirth is a tragedy. Having a child going OTD is a tragedy.

Would you consider a first trimester isolated miscarriage a tragedy?
Would you consider giving birth to a child with DS a tragedy?

I'm sorry if this question brings up intense emotions but please don't bash me on this thread. I brought up this topic out of curiosity and perhaps to spark a discussion, but like I said, I just experienced a pregnancy loss and am still very sensitive and don't know if I'm ready emotionally to be bashed here.
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:28 pm
I think a lot of it is very circumstantial.
I have a sick child but don’t consider it a tragedy. Whereas my friend who has very different family dynamics and has a sick child- I do consider it tragic...
And op, sorry for your loss Hug may Hashem fill your heart and hands soon with besuros toives and lots of nachas
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:29 pm
No and no
Challenges, yes, but not tragedies.
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:30 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
No and no
Challenges, yes, but not tragedies.

Yes! That’s the word I was looking for Smile
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:40 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
No and no
Challenges, yes, but not tragedies.

What a perfect word!

Would you consider having to give up the child with DS a tragedy?
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HonesttoGod




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:23 pm
Is “nebech” a Tragedy?
I mean there’s lots of challenges that I wouldn’t necessarily say is a tragedy but I would say nebech. As in poor person that has to suffer through this challenge. It’s sad/hard for them.
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amother




Tangerine
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:36 pm
your post reminds me of an incident.

I once attended a Bar Mitzvah for a ds boy.

He was living at a family from birth. I don't know if legally adopted or only foster care but she very much considers him, her child & treats him just like her other kids.

I know him from this family from growing up there. Very hi functioning, always part of things by this family & brings joy.

He never cut ties with his biological parents. They gave him up by birth because they had a large family & marrying off kids & it was too much to handle at time.

Comes Bar Mitzvah. Both sets of parents are there. The new foster parents showed slides of all happy pics while he is growing up among her children & they are proud of the accomplishments of how he progressed there.
Then his real father gets up at podium with a whole drasha how you are supposed to have emunah when tragedy hits etc...

Talking about same person....one viewed it as a nachas & one as a painful sitch.


Last edited by amother on Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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amother




Papaya
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:37 pm
I would consider a tragedy only something that is extreme and out of the norm. Being childless and having a miscarriage after expensive ivf after age 40 is a tragedy. Having only disabled children no healthy ones is a tragedy. Everyone goes through challenges, sadness and difficulty decisions but not everything is a tragedy.
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dankbar




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:45 pm
look everything is relevant & according to one's view.
Someone who suffered a horrible marriage is relieved with divorce although she might be tssked now.
Someone who sees a loved one suffering with no quality of life anymore just hooked up to sustain life but not functioning ( in a vegetarian stage) might be relieved with the passing that the person is not suffering anymore

Someone growing up in a warm loving home with a single parent might be better off than her friend in a two parent home that are always fighting , although on outside it doesn't seem that way
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agreer




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:47 pm
I don't consider early miscarriage a tragedy.

Death (especially when it's a younger person) is tragic. Debilitating illnesses, such as cancer and MS, ch"V R"L are tragic. Preventable divorce is tragic.

Giving up a DS baby at 46 IS a tragedy. That woman should have been on birth control and that child should have never been born. If you're going to get pregnant at 46, you've got to go in ready to accept whatever Hashem gives you. If you're not ready, don't do it.

That story about the 2 bar mitzvah speeches is really sad. I hope the bar mitzvah bachur realizes how lucky he got with his foster family!
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elisheva25




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:48 pm
To each their own
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amother




Ruby
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:48 pm
I think it completely depends on the situation and individual. I am 37 and expecting my first with preexisting mental health issues. For me, a miscarriage would have been a tradgedy. For others, not. A lot has to do with personal perspective and experience.
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trixx




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:56 pm
agreer wrote:
I don't consider early miscarriage a tragedy.

Death (especially when it's a younger person) is tragic. Debilitating illnesses, such as cancer and MS, ch"V R"L are tragic. Preventable divorce is tragic.

Giving up a DS baby at 46 IS a tragedy. That woman should have been on birth control and that child should have never been born. If you're going to get pregnant at 46, you've got to go in ready to accept whatever Hashem gives you. If you're not ready, don't do it.

That story about the 2 bar mitzvah speeches is really sad. I hope the bar mitzvah bachur realizes how lucky he got with his foster family!


This is a little harsh and fails to take into account BC fails or the presumed notion that we believe Hashem has some kind of plan.
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genius




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jan 11 2020, 11:56 pm
tragedy is a rather relative term. I don't think having a down syndrome child is tragic. (I have one myself. cutest thing in the world) but it definitely is a challenge. (especially in the beginning.) I wonder what you hope to accomplish by giving it a term. Will you feel better when you know that most people only coin it "a nisayon"? will you have a calmer week now that there are less tragedies in your little world? just curious...
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:17 am
genius wrote:
tragedy is a rather relative term. I don't think having a down syndrome child is tragic. (I have one myself. cutest thing in the world) but it definitely is a challenge. (especially in the beginning.) I wonder what you hope to accomplish by giving it a term. Will you feel better when you know that most people only coin it "a nisayon"? will you have a calmer week now that there are less tragedies in your little world? just curious...

Excuse me! That was harsh! So sorry for triggering you. Please skip this thread if you don't like it. Exactly what I was afraid would happen if I'd start this thread. (I don't usually start these types of threads. Will it be my last time?)

I can't believe someone even liked her post Banging head
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genius




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:38 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Excuse me! That was harsh! So sorry for triggering you. Please skip this thread if you don't like it. Exactly what I was afraid would happen if I'd start this thread. (I don't usually start these types of threads. Will it be my last time?)

I can't believe someone even liked her post Banging head

Hey!!! I was just asking out of curiosity. I wasn't triggered at all. smiling and calm all the way through. pity you can't read a tone of voice. you shouldn't have taken it personally. Banging head
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amother




Cerise
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:51 am
Having a child with DS is not a tragedy. Giving it away, is a tragedy.
Sorry if it triggers someone.

When I gave birth to my DS child, people told me 'not to bond' with my baby, because If I decide to give the child away, I shouldn't feel attached. I said, so why is it upsetting to have a miscarriage or stillborn? You didn't bond with the baby yet... right? Wrong!!!
Bonding starts at conception. When you give birth, you already love the child, hence giving away this child is a tragedy.
Having a miscarriage is not a tragedy if those parents would have given the child away, if the child would have been born with Down syndrome.
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daagahminayin




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:12 am
Hi OP. I’m so sorry for your loss!

No, it’s not a tragedy to have a DS child. She is one of the greatest gifts in my life. Finding out at birth was very painful, but I didn’t consider it a tragedy - more like a very difficult emotional challenge I needed to get through.

(Thank you so much to the Imamother community btw. I posted about it anonymously after I gave birth and the support I got from was phenomenal. It gave me so much strength and I’m forever grateful).

As I understand it, a tragedy connotes a sorrowful ending. In a Greek tragedy the hero always dies because of a fatal flaw. There’s a finality of the loss, a despair with no way out, may Hashem protect us all!

Wherever there is hope, or the ability to grow from even an excruciatingly painful situation, to find the light in in it, to bring consciousness of Hashem into it - there is no tragedy.

As former Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan’s Sacks puts it: “Judaism is the principled rejection of tragedy in the name of hope”.
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andrea levy




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:18 am
I think Iran shooting down the airliner recently qualifies. Our tenant knew two of the people that died. Young grad students that she knew from her Persian culture group at school. Real people died on that plane. How about the guy who didn’t make it into the plane but his wife did? Or the newly weds? Or the young parents with a toddler? 63 Canadians with 138 in total on their way to Canada makes this seem very real to me. Sadly, even more tragic. Makes me wonder why mire tragic just because my own country was hit hard. But then again 9/11 wS also real to me because I flew that day and I felt horribly guilty whenever I met relatives of the victims which happened quite often in Boston. Just in our shul there were three families that lost fathers. And at the ymca I belonged to, a lifeguard and a fellow member also lost their husband/father/uncle.

Not to say that I doNt think the missing Malaysia airliner isn’t also a huge tragedy it just doesn’t seem as personal as this to me.
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gamzehyaavor




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:45 am
daagahminayin wrote:
Hi OP. I’m so sorry for your loss!

No, it’s not a tragedy to have a DS child. She is one of the greatest gifts in my life. Finding out at birth was very painful, but I didn’t consider it a tragedy - more like a very difficult emotional challenge I needed to get through.

(Thank you so much to the Imamother community btw. I posted about it anonymously after I gave birth and the support I got from was phenomenal. It gave me so much strength and I’m forever grateful).

As I understand it, a tragedy connotes a sorrowful ending. In a Greek tragedy the hero always dies because of a fatal flaw. There’s a finality of the loss, a despair with no way out, may Hashem protect us all!

Wherever there is hope, or the ability to grow from even an excruciatingly painful situation, to find the light in in it, to bring consciousness of Hashem into it - there is no tragedy.

As former Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan’s Sacks puts it: “Judaism is the principled rejection of tragedy in the name of hope”.

Very well said
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