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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
happyone
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:49 am
it's all on your perspective of life. some ppl view a broken washer dryer as a tragedy while others only view something irreparable and life altering like death or divorce to be tragic. although sometimes divorce is the biggest bracha and death is a relief to some.
To me a challenge would best describe most circumstances including illness if it can be treated.
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amother
White
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:12 am
Our family lost 2 young members suddenly in 2 separate accidents a few months apart. That's genuine heart breaking tragedy. One that we will never ever be able to fully move past.
We also have been through many many challenges, including cancer, surgeries, infertility, miscarriage, severe mental health issues, financial strain, Sholom Bayis, OTD kids. Those are all very hard and complicating, but not tragic. They all have hope attached, there are ways to pull positive out of these situations and even turn things around.
Young loss, either sudden ( more shocking) or after illness, watching suffering and hoping is tragic. It is final, all the hoping in the world, won't bring them back.
The Parents, siblings, spouse and children are forever changed.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:17 am
amother [ White ] wrote: | Our family lost 2 young members suddenly in 2 separate accidents a few months apart. That's genuine heart breaking tragedy. One that we will never ever be able to fully move past.
We also have been through many many challenges, including cancer, surgeries, infertility, miscarriage, severe mental health issues, financial strain, Sholom Bayis, OTD kids. Those are all very hard and complicating, but not tragic. They all have hope attached, there are ways to pull positive out of these situations and even turn things around.
Young loss, either sudden ( more shocking) or after illness, watching suffering and hoping is tragic. It is final, all the hoping in the world, won't bring them back.
The Parents, siblings, spouse and children are forever changed. |
Thanks for sharing. May you only experience simchos from now on.
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amother
Slategray
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:19 am
FranticFrummie wrote: |
(BTW, the term "real parent" is very offensive. All parents are real. There are real birth parents, and real adoptive parents. None of us are fake.) |
Thanks so much for this, I feel that the from community often really doesn't get it.
I have six kids we say that some are
from my stomach and some from my heart. The kids all get it, they know the have two mommies, one in shomayim and one in their house. The problem is the people around who say really clueless comments like "who is your real mommy" " is she your real sister"
I sometimes get nervous and say nope, I'm a fake, really good AI, and I plug myself in to recharge every night
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amother
Gray
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:22 am
amother [ White ] wrote: | Our family lost 2 young members suddenly in 2 separate accidents a few months apart. That's genuine heart breaking tragedy. One that we will never ever be able to fully move past.
We also have been through many many challenges, including cancer, surgeries, infertility, miscarriage, severe mental health issues, financial strain, Sholom Bayis, OTD kids. Those are all very hard and complicating, but not tragic. They all have hope attached, there are ways to pull positive out of these situations and even turn things around.
Young loss, either sudden ( more shocking) or after illness, watching suffering and hoping is tragic. It is final, all the hoping in the world, won't bring them back.
The Parents, siblings, spouse and children are forever changed. |
I think this pretty much summarizes it. As long as there’s hope & not final. Not to say that there aren’t tragic life situations but bolded is so true in many cases.
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amother
Khaki
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 11:34 am
amother [ Cerise ] wrote: | Having a child with DS is not a tragedy. Giving it away, is a tragedy.
Sorry if it triggers someone.
When I gave birth to my DS child, people told me 'not to bond' with my baby, because If I decide to give the child away, I shouldn't feel attached. I said, so why is it upsetting to have a miscarriage or stillborn? You didn't bond with the baby yet... right? Wrong!!!
Bonding starts at conception. When you give birth, you already love the child, hence giving away this child is a tragedy.
Having a miscarriage is not a tragedy if those parents would have given the child away, if the child would have been born with Down syndrome. |
It depends if you're looking at it from the biological parents' point of view, from the child's point of view or from the adoptive's parents point of view.
Someone close to me gave up her DS child for adoption and it changed my entire way of thinking. This was not "I don't want this child and I'm giving it away"...it was "I love this child and I'm not capable of giving him the kind of life he deserves so I'm going to find a family that is". It's probably the hardest decision a parent has to make, but it's also the greatest sacrifice and gift you can give to a child and his adoptive family.
I will never judge another person who gives up their child for adoption again.
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amother
Smokey
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:00 pm
amother [ Khaki ] wrote: | It depends if you're looking at it from the biological parents' point of view, from the child's point of view or from the adoptive's parents point of view.
Someone close to me gave up her DS child for adoption and it changed my entire way of thinking. This was not "I don't want this child and I'm giving it away"...it was "I love this child and I'm not capable of giving him the kind of life he deserves so I'm going to find a family that is". It's probably the hardest decision a parent has to make, but it's also the greatest sacrifice and gift you can give to a child and his adoptive family.
I will never judge another person who gives up their child for adoption again. |
I wanted more children. I still am desperate to have more children. But I chose to be on birth control because after having a child with special needs I see how hard it is to have them. Each time I wanted a child I would ask myself honestly, am I prepared to have one with these same challenges again? Because there is no guarantee.
I think what’s frustrating about your friend’s mindset is that she was willing to have another child but only on her terms, and it’s all about other people having to save her from her own consequences. She wasn’t willing to make a hard choice, which is to not have a child, and when the consequences of that choice didn’t work out, she gave away a child. That’s a tragedy.
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amother
Olive
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:07 pm
I just heard a shiur from rabbi ashar and he said if its something your going through and doesn’t have to be big it’s your tragedy. I got out that sometimes we can say for our small tragedy’s it’s a bad it’s a tragedy but then we lift ourselves up and say god I accept this so much worse is in the world. Comparing tragedy’s is not really a comparison depends who is going through what.
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amother
Plum
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:22 pm
andrea levy wrote: | I think Iran shooting down the airliner recently qualifies. Our tenant knew two of the people that died. Young grad students that she knew from her Persian culture group at school. Real people died on that plane. How about the guy who didn’t make it into the plane but his wife did? Or the newly weds? Or the young parents with a toddler? 63 Canadians with 138 in total on their way to Canada makes this seem very real to me. Sadly, even more tragic. Makes me wonder why mire tragic just because my own country was hit hard. But then again 9/11 wS also real to me because I flew that day and I felt horribly guilty whenever I met relatives of the victims which happened quite often in Boston. Just in our shul there were three families that lost fathers. And at the ymca I belonged to, a lifeguard and a fellow member also lost their husband/father/uncle.
Not to say that I doNt think the missing Malaysia airliner isn’t also a huge tragedy it just doesn’t seem as personal as this to me. |
There will always be worse things in the world than what happened or will happen to.us personally. That doesn't mean anything 'smaller' is easier by thinking these things. A miscarriage is a big nisayon, you will feel better with time but it is hard, it's a loss! Whatever you're feeling is ok. I've been through one myself after having 2 healthy son's. I've had more kids since bh but it can take some time to get over. Grieve as much as you want/need. Big hugs
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amother
Scarlet
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:26 pm
Death isn't a tragedy. Life is.
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amother
Khaki
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:32 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote: | I wanted more children. I still am desperate to have more children. But I chose to be on birth control because after having a child with special needs I see how hard it is to have them. Each time I wanted a child I would ask myself honestly, am I prepared to have one with these same challenges again? Because there is no guarantee.
I think what’s frustrating about your friend’s mindset is that she was willing to have another child but only on her terms, and it’s all about other people having to save her from her own consequences. She wasn’t willing to make a hard choice, which is to not have a child, and when the consequences of that choice didn’t work out, she gave away a child. That’s a tragedy. |
I hear what you're saying...I'm not sure what the answer to that is and I wouldn't ask her (she doesn't talk about it). What I know is that she didn't just give the child away to anyone - she did months of research - and that child is now considered a huge blessing to the loving family who has him. She also stopped having children after this.
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amother
Blue
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 12:50 pm
I got married in my late 30s, finally conceived when I was close to 40. If I would have miscarried that would have been very tragic. At that point, at least 1/4 of my friends my age had had miscarriages at some point in between their many children. Most of them did not consider those miscarriages tragedies.
My sister got pregnant when her first was a few months old and then she miscarried. She was actually relieved. BH she went on to have more children.
9/11 was a tragedy. No other way to describe it. But other events have so many circumstances attached, you can't make blanket statements.
If someone has a really bad relationship with her parents, she will not consider it a tragedy when they die, even if they are on the younger side.
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Flip Flops
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:26 pm
amother [ Cerise ] wrote: | Having a child with DS is not a tragedy. Giving it away, is a tragedy.
Sorry if it triggers someone.
When I gave birth to my DS child, people told me 'not to bond' with my baby, because If I decide to give the child away, I shouldn't feel attached. I said, so why is it upsetting to have a miscarriage or stillborn? You didn't bond with the baby yet... right? Wrong!!!
Bonding starts at conception. When you give birth, you already love the child, hence giving away this child is a tragedy.
Having a miscarriage is not a tragedy if those parents would have given the child away, if the child would have been born with Down syndrome. |
I am triggered by this because it is wrong. Giving away a child with ds is not a tragedy. Thank Hashem that you are able to care for your ds child but others can not. Do not judge someone until you have walked a day in their shoes. There are many situations where giving up a ds child is beneficial and even necessary for the child and family alike.
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amother
Amethyst
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 2:03 pm
amother [ Khaki ] wrote: | It depends if you're looking at it from the biological parents' point of view, from the child's point of view or from the adoptive's parents point of view.
Someone close to me gave up her DS child for adoption and it changed my entire way of thinking. This was not "I don't want this child and I'm giving it away"...it was "I love this child and I'm not capable of giving him the kind of life he deserves so I'm going to find a family that is". It's probably the hardest decision a parent has to make, but it's also the greatest sacrifice and gift you can give to a child and his adoptive family.
I will never judge another person who gives up their child for adoption again. |
They say the second one but they’re really thinking the first one. The bar mitzvah boy with DS father clearly saw his birth as a tragedy.
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amother
Smokey
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:13 pm
Flip Flops wrote: | I am triggered by this because it is wrong. Giving away a child with ds is not a tragedy. Thank Hashem that you are able to care for your ds child but others can not. Do not judge someone until you have walked a day in their shoes. There are many situations where giving up a ds child is beneficial and even necessary for the child and family alike. |
If it’s so beneficial, maybe they should give away their normative children and keep the Down’s syndrome child. That way they have more time and resources for the child they birthed, just as much as they birthed the other ones.
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amother
Denim
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:19 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote: | My friend and I were having a discussion. I tried to explain to her that I didn't think of a specific woman I knew as a "nebach" who had a child with Down syndrome at the age of 46 (child #14- and yes, she gave up the child, but that's for that other thread....). I just miscarried a week ago. Using that as an example, I explained that I don't think of my early miscarriage as a tragedy. I was devastated, but in my opinion it's not a tragedy. Children with DS bring a lot of simcha into a home. I hope I never have that nisayon, and perhaps I can't judge, but would you classify giving birth to a child with DS as a tragedy? Losing a child or other loved ones r"l is a tragedy. Being childless is a tragedy. Experiencing a stillbirth is a tragedy. Having a child going OTD is a tragedy.
Would you consider a first trimester isolated miscarriage a tragedy?
Would you consider giving birth to a child with DS a tragedy?
I'm sorry if this question brings up intense emotions but please don't bash me on this thread. I brought up this topic out of curiosity and perhaps to spark a discussion, but like I said, I just experienced a pregnancy loss and am still very sensitive and don't know if I'm ready emotionally to be bashed here. |
The term is relative. Yes I do think having to give up a child due to sickness a tragedy. One person wrote into a magazine about her tragedy of only having 7 children. I’d say the tragedy is couples who don’t have any...
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amother
Denim
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:22 pm
genius wrote: | tragedy is a rather relative term. I don't think having a down syndrome child is tragic. (I have one myself. cutest thing in the world) but it definitely is a challenge. (especially in the beginning.) I wonder what you hope to accomplish by giving it a term. Will you feel better when you know that most people only coin it "a nisayon"? will you have a calmer week now that there are less tragedies in your little world? just curious... |
That’s your opinion but not everyone’s. Many would consider having a handicapped child a tragedy.
Um that’s what I said. I agree.
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ora_43
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:23 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote: | Just being dan lkav zechus here : why does that make him a terrible father? Maybe the word "tragedy" meant, to him, feeling unable to have his beloved child growing up at home together with the rest of his family |
It's still talking about something that's part of who the child is as if it's a tragedy, to the child's face, in front of all of his family and friends. I mean it's not like he's saying "tragically, I didn't have the emotional energy to care for my own child, because of my own issues," he's saying, "tragically he was born with special needs."
Honestly even if he gave the kid up for adoption for reasons that had nothing to do with downs syndrome it would still be a pretty dumb thing to do. I don't think it takes more than minimal social awareness to know that if you've given a kid up for adoption, they might have complicated feelings about that, even if they haven't said so openly. And while there's a time and place to talk about that, "at a party celebrating the child, in front of their friends" is not that time or place. Just say you're proud and save the rest for later.
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Flip Flops
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 4:31 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote: | If it’s so beneficial, maybe they should give away their normative children and keep the Down’s syndrome child. That way they have more time and resources for the child they birthed, just as much as they birthed the other ones. |
Alright, if you think that is a good idea than go ahead and give away all your children to keep the one with ds.
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amother
Olive
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Sun, Jan 12 2020, 5:04 pm
Seriously no one should judge!! Some people will say a DS child is a blessing some will find it difficult and some will call it tragic!
Men have a harder time with it altogether but NO ONE is allowed to judge
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