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amother
Mustard
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 Fri, Jan 17 2020, 11:08 am
| naturalmom5 wrote: | 14a
What do you make of the gam' mention of dreams here..
If one goes 7 days without dreaming , that person is evil
What sort of dream are we talking about |
It seems that dreams were a (minor) form of nevuah, so they were a sign that Hashem was concerned with/communicating with that individual. Not having dreams signified a loss of heavenly interest/concern. Nowadays, since we no longer have nevuah, dreams no longer have the same significance.
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malki2
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Fri, Jan 17 2020, 12:06 pm
| amother [ Mustard ] wrote: | | It seems that dreams were a (minor) form of nevuah, so they were a sign that Hashem was concerned with/communicating with that individual. Not having dreams signified a loss of heavenly interest/concern. Nowadays, since we no longer have nevuah, dreams no longer have the same significance. |
AFAIK they didn’t have nevuah in the time of the Gemara either. It IS possible for dreams nowadays to mean something, as it was in those days. Maybe not common, but possible.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Fri, Jan 17 2020, 12:12 pm
Berakhot 13
I finally understand the machloket between ben Zoma and the Chachamim regarding remembering yetziat mitzrayim. Before this, I could never understand why we said this in the Haggadah, since if we go according to the chachamim and not ben Zoma, it seemed to me that the chachamim were saying not to say it at night! (Which I knew wasn't true of course, because Shema, but that just added to my confusion.) ETA: Now I understand that the machloket is about what precisely you learn from the words "kol yemei chayecha" rather than whether you actually say it at night. Also to what extent we will talk about yetziat mitzrayim in yemot hamashiach.
Now I can finally understand the Mishna when I say this in the Haggadah.
It was wonderful finishing the first perek!
The discussion of kavana and/vs. kr'iah in the first and second parashiyot of Shema was fascinating. I could not quite keep up with the subtleties given what I find to be the breakneck pace of Rabbinit Farber's shiurim, but I realize now that what I used to puzzle over as seemingly circular reasoning, is really just "mirror image" reasoning and within each line of argument, knowledge of what the other mirror image would entail. A very interesting proof technique which comes up all over Shas, so I should master this. But no time today.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Fri, Jan 17 2020, 12:27 pm
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No time to do Daf Yomi today. Fridays are almost always too busy to do Daf Yomi. I'll do what I did last week. I made it up over the weekend.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Fri, Jan 17 2020, 12:33 pm
| Aylat wrote: | Useful to have a short daf on a Friday.
I'm beginning to find the pace hard, frustrated at being unable to go into depth, to really follow and be 'koneh' the thread of machloket, the understanding behind the different opinions. But I still want to do this. My modest aim is to get an overview of the whole Shas, an idea of the topics discussed and I am getting that. I in no way think I will become a talmid chacham from this. And it is having a good effect on me. The daily schedule - no procrastination possible if I want to keep up. The Torah it's adding to my life and that I'm bringing into conversation with my family. My kids seeing me listen to a shiur Torah everyday which sadly I had fallen out of the habit of doing. And it's definitely a better use of my time than what I was doing instead - all kinds of time-wasting on my phone.
So, onwards beH. |
The aim of this is not to become a Talmid Chacham. It is to gain some knowledge of what is inside the Gemara. It is at most superficial, but superficial is so much better than not knowing at all! I have already learned a tremendous amount, and as much as I know that am only skimming the surface, what an amazing experience it is!
It will certainly get harder as we get into more "lomdish" sections. (Most of the first perek was drashim rather than the real shakla vetarya that characterizes most sugyot.) I started this process knowing that I would have to go through sugyot where I would not understand it the way I wanted to. Accepting that this is imperfect is a prerequisite to doing this without going crazy. I keep telling myself each day: I know more now than I did before I did the Daf. That is enough for me.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Fri, Jan 17 2020, 1:00 pm
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | Berakhot 13
I finally understand the machloket between ben Zoma and the Chachamim regarding remembering yetziat mitzrayim. Before this, I could never understand why we said this in the Haggadah, since if we go according to the chachamim and not ben Zoma, it seemed to me that the chachamim were saying not to say it at night! (Which I knew wasn't true of course, because Shema, but that just added to my confusion.) ETA: Now I understand that the machloket is about what precisely you learn from the words "kol yemei chayecha" rather than whether you actually say it at night. Also to what extent we will talk about yetziat mitzrayim in yemot hamashiach.
Now I can finally understand the Mishna when I say this in the Haggadah.
It was wonderful finishing the first perek!
The discussion of kavana and/vs. kr'iah in the first and second parashiyot of Shema was fascinating. I could not quite keep up with the subtleties given what I find to be the breakneck pace of Rabbinit Farber's shiurim, but I realize now that what I used to puzzle over as seemingly circular reasoning, is really just "mirror image" reasoning and within each line of argument, knowledge of what the other mirror image would entail. A very interesting proof technique which comes up all over Shas, so I should master this. But no time today. |
Regarding my post about now understanding the paragraph in the Haggadah: Naysayers might say: Do you need to do Daf Yomi for that? Just look up that Mishna, and learn that piece of Gemara! The thing is that I did once do that, and I didn't really understand it the way I do now.
First, because I am doing it with a shiur, which works a lot better for me than doing it on my own. Second, because context really makes a difference. When you're doing Daf Yomi, you have the context, and that doesn't happen when you just look up something in the Gemara.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Fri, Jan 17 2020, 2:42 pm
Some words of chizuk , because I think doing Daf Yomi on Friday and Shabbat / Motzaei Shabbat is hard for most of us. And overall this is hard.
1. If you go through the Daf in any way at all, you will know more than if you hadn’t.
2. It’s easier to do something in the short term than to stop and promise to come back when you have time. (I’m skipping Friday Daf Yomi and will make it up on the weekend but that is hopefully doable; I’m talking about not having a plan for long periods of time.)
3. Make an ideal plan and then several less than ideal but still acceptable alternatives. For example, my ideal, which I’ve been able to do almost every day, is listening to Rabbanit Farber’s shiur with the Gemara in front of me. Less ideal: listening to the shiur while scanning the Gemara on Sefaria . Less ideal: listening to the shiur but not following in the text. Less ideal, but still acceptable: listening to a shorter shiur. Perhaps I should do one of the less ideal alternatives on Friday as motzaei Shabbat becomes shorter.
4. I keep worrying: what if I or a family member ch”v gets sick? What if a parent winds up in the hospital and I have to do the sleeping in the hospital thing? I have told myself that in those cases, I will have to temporarily stop Daf Yomi but I will jump back in as soon as the crisis is over. I may not be able to finish in the 7.5 year cycle but I will learn as much as I can. Iy”h in zechut of this learning, such things won’t happen and God will give us strength, but we don’t know what is in the future and we do have to realize that unexpected things can happen.
5. We have to stop expecting perfection from ourselves in order for this to work.
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chicco
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Fri, Jan 17 2020, 3:03 pm
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | Some words of chizuk , because I think doing Daf Yomi on Friday and Shabbat / Motzaei Shabbat is hard for most of us. And overall this is hard.
1. If you go through the Daf in any way at all, you will know more than if you hadn’t.
2. It’s easier to do something in the short term than to stop and promise to come back when you have time. (I’m skipping Friday Daf Yomi and will make it up on the weekend but that is hopefully doable; I’m talking about not having a plan for long periods of time.)
3. Make an ideal plan and then several less than ideal but still acceptable alternatives. For example, my ideal, which I’ve been able to do almost every day, is listening to Rabbanit Farber’s shiur with the Gemara in front of me. Less ideal: listening to the shiur while scanning the Gemara on Sefaria . Less ideal: listening to the shiur but not following in the text. Less ideal, but still acceptable: listening to a shorter shiur. Perhaps I should do one of the less ideal alternatives on Friday as motzaei Shabbat becomes shorter.
4. I keep worrying: what if I or a family member ch”v gets sick? What if a parent winds up in the hospital and I have to do the sleeping in the hospital thing? I have told myself that in those cases, I will have to temporarily stop Daf Yomi but I will jump back in as soon as the crisis is over. I may not be able to finish in the 7.5 year cycle but I will learn as much as I can. Iy”h in zechut of this learning, such things won’t happen and God will give us strength, but we don’t know what is in the future and we do have to realize that unexpected things can happen.
5. We have to stop expecting perfection from ourselves in order for this to work. |
I needed to hear this. Thanks. I try to do 2 on Friday, but I also wonder how long I can keep it up, especially with the less 'exciting' dapim.
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Aylat
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Sat, Jan 18 2020, 4:47 pm
Thanks for the chizuk JoyInTheMorning. "If I go through the daf in any way at all I'll know more than if I didn't." Yes.
I also like your list of your ideal way to learn it, and then the ways you will learn if you can't manage that.
Brachot 14 ברכות יד
What is considered greeting? Speaking, rising, nodding, waving? If speaking- how long? Just shalom or a whole sentence or more?
Brachot 15 ברכות טו
Ok, so I was trying to learn the Gemara inside on Shabbat and got completely confused by
דיעבד אין לכתחילה לא
because I was reading אין as 'ein'=not, instead of as 'in'= yes (Aramaic). Doh! Realised my mistake when listened to a shiur motzsh.
Re the whole debate: who said this mishna.
Why are only some of the mishnayot recorded in the name of who said them? If they all were then it would make things a lot simpler and cut out most of the debate on this daf.
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naturalmom5
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Sat, Jan 18 2020, 9:43 pm
Well..15b is certainly the daf for Imamother. 
Three things are never satisied the passage way to the womb..the grave..and the ground for water
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imorethanamother
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Sat, Jan 18 2020, 10:08 pm
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Reading the daf about how saying shema should be with tefillin, otherwise you haven’t done the mitzvah properly, it makes me wonder whether our shema isn’t as good as a man’s shema.
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farm
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Sat, Jan 18 2020, 11:22 pm
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | Some words of chizuk , because I think doing Daf Yomi on Friday and Shabbat / Motzaei Shabbat is hard for most of us. And overall this is hard.
1. If you go through the Daf in any way at all, you will know more than if you hadn’t.
2. It’s easier to do something in the short term than to stop and promise to come back when you have time. (I’m skipping Friday Daf Yomi and will make it up on the weekend but that is hopefully doable; I’m talking about not having a plan for long periods of time.)
3. Make an ideal plan and then several less than ideal but still acceptable alternatives. For example, my ideal, which I’ve been able to do almost every day, is listening to Rabbanit Farber’s shiur with the Gemara in front of me. Less ideal: listening to the shiur while scanning the Gemara on Sefaria . Less ideal: listening to the shiur but not following in the text. Less ideal, but still acceptable: listening to a shorter shiur. Perhaps I should do one of the less ideal alternatives on Friday as motzaei Shabbat becomes shorter.
4. I keep worrying: what if I or a family member ch”v gets sick? What if a parent winds up in the hospital and I have to do the sleeping in the hospital thing? I have told myself that in those cases, I will have to temporarily stop Daf Yomi but I will jump back in as soon as the crisis is over. I may not be able to finish in the 7.5 year cycle but I will learn as much as I can. Iy”h in zechut of this learning, such things won’t happen and God will give us strength, but we don’t know what is in the future and we do have to realize that unexpected things can happen.
5. We have to stop expecting perfection from ourselves in order for this to work. |
I get around this by doing 2 daf 2x per week during Monday-Friday and not having pressure to keep up Shabbos and sunday. That’s because for me, it’s a lot more doable to fit it in at work. If my kids see me on the couch with a ‘book’ on shabbos, they jump in my lap and want me to read them a book or play a game or they are staaarving... It sounds like this isn’t your issue but the underlying solution is the same- try to get ahead a few dapim so it’s not so much pressure when you can’t do a day here and there. Then listen to the shiur in order/on schedule and it’s chazzara for you, which is always nice. I agree with your hierarchy which recognizes that inside the gemora following along with a shiur is the most demanding so my point is to do it inside yourself (Artscroll in my case) and get a few days ahead. Try to keep it up (being ahead) as much as possible, and listen to the shiur on the daf yomi schedule when you can. It will be built in chazzara and hopefully more realistic to keep up for 7.5 years.
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farm
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Sat, Jan 18 2020, 11:26 pm
| imorethanamother wrote: | | Reading the daf about how saying shema should be with tefillin, otherwise you haven’t done the mitzvah properly, it makes me wonder whether our shema isn’t as good as a man’s shema. |
Um women aren’t responsible for mitzvos asei shehazman gerama = tefillin and keriyas shema
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malki2
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Sat, Jan 18 2020, 11:42 pm
| Aylat wrote: | Re the whole debate: who said this mishna.
Why are only some of the mishnayot recorded in the name of who said them? If they all were then it would make things a lot simpler and cut out most of the debate on this daf. |
From Wikipedia:
Most of the Mishnah is related without attribution (stam). This usually indicates that many sages taught so, or that Judah the Prince ruled so. The halakhic ruling usually follows that view. Sometimes, however, it appears to be the opinion of a single sage, and the view of the sages collectively (Hebrew: חכמים, hachamim) is given separately.
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amother
Mustard
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Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:49 am
| imorethanamother wrote: | | Reading the daf about how saying shema should be with tefillin, otherwise you haven’t done the mitzvah properly, it makes me wonder whether our shema isn’t as good as a man’s shema. |
It isn’t anyway, because we are not mechuyav in krias shema and gadol hametzuveh v’oseh . . . The whole thing about being mei’id eidus sheker got me thinking about how women are pasul l’eidus anyway . . . I wasn’t going to comment about this, because it all makes me sad, but since someone else commented on it already . . .
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amother
Mustard
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Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:51 am
| malki2 wrote: | From Wikipedia:
Most of the Mishnah is related without attribution (stam). This usually indicates that many sages taught so, or that Judah the Prince ruled so. The halakhic ruling usually follows that view. Sometimes, however, it appears to be the opinion of a single sage, and the view of the sages collectively (Hebrew: חכמים, hachamim) is given separately. |
I think stam Mishna is generally Rabbi Me’ir (as is acheirim).
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imorethanamother
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Sun, Jan 19 2020, 1:23 am
| farm wrote: | | Um women aren’t responsible for mitzvos asei shehazman gerama = tefillin and keriyas shema |
Right. But I thought that like other Mitzvos that we aren’t mechuyav to do, doing them is okay and encourages, just that we aren’t obligated to do so. The text implies that we can’t even do shema at all properly because we aren’t putting on tefillin.
So what’s the point? This is depressing.
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malki2
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Sun, Jan 19 2020, 1:24 am
| amother [ Mustard ] wrote: | | I think stam Mishna is generally Rabbi Me’ir (as is acheirim). |
True, but if it was always R Meir, the Gemara wouldn’t have to debate who the author was.
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malki2
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Sun, Jan 19 2020, 1:28 am
| imorethanamother wrote: | Right. But I thought that like other Mitzvos that we aren’t mechuyav to do, doing them is okay and encourages, just that we aren’t obligated to do so. The text implies that we can’t even do shema at all properly because we aren’t putting on tefillin.
So what’s the point? This is depressing. |
I think the problem with saying Shema without tefilin is BC it’s like saying false testimony about yourself, because you are talking about tefilin so why aren’t you wearing them. But if we aren’t mechuyav in tefilin, then it’s not a problem for us of saying false testimony. It’s not like it’s a better Shema when you are wearing tefilin. Bc even men say it at night without tefilin and it’s not a problem bc they are not mechuyav at night.
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Aylat
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Sun, Jan 19 2020, 2:13 am
| malki2 wrote: | | True, but if it was always R Meir, the Gemara wouldn’t have to debate who the author was. |
Right. So why wasn't each statement attributed?
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