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Discussion on the Daf - Brachot
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 2:14 am
malki2 wrote:
I think the problem with saying Shema without tefilin is BC it’s like saying false testimony about yourself, because you are talking about tefilin so why aren’t you wearing them. But if we aren’t mechuyav in tefilin, then it’s not a problem for us of saying false testimony. It’s not like it’s a better Shema when you are wearing tefilin. Bc even men say it at night without tefilin and it’s not a problem bc they are not mechuyav at night.


This makes sense to me.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 5:39 am
Aylat wrote:
Right. So why wasn't each statement attributed?


BC that was R Yehuda Hanasi’s way of saying that this is the accepted Halacha. R Yehuda Hanasi was basically the last of the Tannaim. He compiled all of the statements of the previous Tannaim into the Mishna, and he also paskened the Halacha. But instead of saying Halacha KeRabbi Akiva or something like that, he wrote the Halacha without a name. As if to say that this is the Halacha and it’s not up for debate.

BTW the whole point of the concise, sometimes cryptic way RYN wrote the Mishnah was exactly for the purpose of bringing out all of the debating that makes up the Gemara. The Mishnah needed to be memorizable. Therefore he had to make it as short as possible. Yet it needed to be written in a way so that those who studied it would be able to get to the Halachot that are included in the Gemara. So he made it with inconsistencies and difficulties that the Rabbis would find when they delved into it. Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZYL explains all this when he discusses the monumental accomplishment that was the Mishnah. He also says that RYN didn’t do this on his own. He was the genius behind it, but he had hundreds of scholars working for him who compiled all of Torah Shebe’al Peh, including all the Baraitot and other statements of Chazal and sifted through all of them to decide exactly what would be included in the Mishnah. (The Baraitot are called such because they were excluded from the Mishnah (“bar” means ״outside”) He also needed tremendous funding for this, some of which he received from the Roman Emperor Antoninus, with whom he had a close relationship.

So every time you find something “wrong” with a Mishnah, and ask why it wasn’t written some other way, you are actually fulfilling the purpose for which the Mishnah was written. So keep asking the questions!
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:55 am
malki2 wrote:
BC that was R Yehuda Hanasi’s way of saying that this is the accepted Halacha. R Yehuda Hanasi was basically the last of the Tannaim. He compiled all of the statements of the previous Tannaim into the Mishna, and he also paskened the Halacha. But instead of saying Halacha KeRabbi Akiva or something like that, he wrote the Halacha without a name. As if to say that this is the Halacha and it’s not up for debate.

BTW the whole point of the concise, sometimes cryptic way RYN wrote the Mishnah was exactly for the purpose of bringing out all of the debating that makes up the Gemara. The Mishnah needed to be memorizable. Therefore he had to make it as short as possible. Yet it needed to be written in a way so that those who studied it would be able to get to the Halachot that are included in the Gemara. So he made it with inconsistencies and difficulties that the Rabbis would find when they delved into it. Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZYL explains all this when he discusses the monumental accomplishment that was the Mishnah. He also says that RYN didn’t do this on his own. He was the genius behind it, but he had hundreds of scholars working for him who compiled all of Torah Shebe’al Peh, including all the Baraitot and other statements of Chazal and sifted through all of them to decide exactly what would be included in the Mishnah. (The Baraitot are called such because they were excluded from the Mishnah (“bar” means ״outside”) He also needed tremendous funding for this, some of which he received from the Roman Emperor Antoninus, with whom he had a close relationship.

So every time you find something “wrong” with a Mishnah, and ask why it wasn’t written some other way, you are actually fulfilling the purpose for which the Mishnah was written. So keep asking the questions!


Aren’t there mishnayot where there is an opinion given by the (unnamed) tanna kamma and then the Mishna goes on to say וחכמים אומרים, and the halacha goes according to the chachamim, not the tanna kamma? Doesn’t this seem to indicate that R. Yehuda (ETA Hanasi) was *not* saying that the anonymous opinion is always the halacha?


Last edited by JoyInTheMorning on Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:04 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Aren’t there mishnayot where there is an opinion given by the (unnamed) tanna kamma and then the Mishna goes on to say וחכמים אומרים, and the halacha goes according to the chachamim, not the tanna kamma? Doesn’t this seem to indicate that R. Yehuda was *not* saying that the anonymous opinion is always the halacha?


1. I was referring to cases where just a single opinion is given without a machloket. I think if there’s a machloket and the chachomim are mentioned then we follow the majority opinion.

2. Even then, I don’t know if it’s 100 percent of the time. But it’s a good general rule.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:18 am
Berakhot 14

So many interesting things here. Rabbanit Farber pointed out that there are two cases of stories in this Daf in which one can’t generalize from the story because we don’t know the whole story, the context.

One was the case of Ravina who didn’t greet Rav bar Shava when he (Ravina) was saying Chatzi Hallel. You might think that this means that Ravina didn’t agree with Rabbah who held that you could interrupt to greet someone out of kavod in the middle of Chatzi Hallel. But no, the context is that Ravina didn’t think that much of Rav bar Shava.

The second was the case of Rav who once said Shema before putting on tefillin, in opposition to his statement that you need to have tefillin on while saying Shema. After some discussion, the Gemara explains that this is a case where his servant, who usually brought him Tefillin, was delayed. And as Rashi goes on to explain, the delay would have meant missing the time for saying Shema.

So illustrative anecdotes can’t always be taken at face value.

I felt so bad for Rav bar Shava and his family, seeing Rav bar Shava being talked about in this way in the Gemara!

I found the discussion of the different versions of Shema that were said in EY at that time to be fascinating . They often did not say, or said an abbreviated version of, the third section of Shema. I wonder when the nusach was finalized and unified? How did it come about?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:20 am
malki2 wrote:
1. I was referring to cases where just a single opinion is given without a machloket. I think if there’s a machloket and the chachomim are mentioned then we follow the majority opinion.

2. Even then, I don’t know if it’s 100 percent of the time. But it’s a good general rule.


So regarding 1. When there is a machloket, there’s still the question as to why the tanna kamma isn’t mentioned by name.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:23 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
So regarding 1. When there is a machloket, there’s still the question as to why the tanna kamma isn’t mentioned by name.


I think that when there is a machloket he is mentioned by name. For example in the first Mishna in Berachot.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:47 am
Berakhot 15.

Lots of interesting things in this daf as well. So far I have found each and ever daf to be exciting.

I loved the discussion about the deaf but speaking person re Shema vs terumah. The distinction that is made seems to divide those acts that are by their nature speech acts, such as davening and bentching, and those that have a speech act as their non-essential part, such as terumah. The d’orayta part of the mitzvah of terumah is the separation of the produce (and presumably then giving it to the kohen); saying the beracha is d’rabbanan.

This got me thinking: what about taking a vow? Does Nedarim (or Nazir, which also focuses a lot on vows, and really delves into deep questions regarding intent and speech acts) discuss the case of a deaf but speaking person? Can such a person make a neder/become a nazir? Has anyone here learned about this?

I was very interested to learn of R. Meir’s opinion (which we do not hold by) that everything could be just read without being spoken! Can this opinion be relied on for a kula in the case of someone who is not deaf but loses their voice? What happens when it’s temporary, like laryngitis? Or ch”v permanent, like cancer or botched surgery?

I also loved the discussion of whether to include the self-referential part of Shema in the mezuzah/ tefillin. I had never considered that to be an issue. As Rabbanit Farber frequently says, there is so much that we take for granted because that’s the way we’ve always done it, but is really far from obvious!
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:48 am
malki2 wrote:
I think that when there is a machloket he is mentioned by name. For example in the first Mishna in Berachot.


Is that always the case? צריך עיון.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:51 am
Could someone tell Yael that I keep getting an ad from the Messianic Prophecy Bible Project whenever I am on this thread? I know we’re supposed to report inappropriate ads.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:08 am
farm wrote:
I get around this by doing 2 daf 2x per week during Monday-Friday and not having pressure to keep up Shabbos and sunday. That’s because for me, it’s a lot more doable to fit it in at work. If my kids see me on the couch with a ‘book’ on shabbos, they jump in my lap and want me to read them a book or play a game or they are staaarving... It sounds like this isn’t your issue but the underlying solution is the same- try to get ahead a few dapim so it’s not so much pressure when you can’t do a day here and there. Then listen to the shiur in order/on schedule and it’s chazzara for you, which is always nice. I agree with your hierarchy which recognizes that inside the gemora following along with a shiur is the most demanding so my point is to do it inside yourself (Artscroll in my case) and get a few days ahead. Try to keep it up (being ahead) as much as possible, and listen to the shiur on the daf yomi schedule when you can. It will be built in chazzara and hopefully more realistic to keep up for 7.5 years.


I can’t get ahead with shiurim because the ones I am listening to (Hadran/ Michelle Cohen Farber) puts out each one the day she gives the shiur. I thought I might be able to get ahead by just learning the Gemara over Shabbat, but I go through Gemara too slowly for this to be practical. So I just ordered the Koren volume for Berakhot. It is coming in tonight. I would have ordered Schottenstein, which I think explains more than Koren, but it would have taken too long to come in. Next Shabbat, I’ll try doing that dat and the previous day’s daf from the Gemara, so I won’t have to keep catching up.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:11 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Is that always the case? צריך עיון.


Let me know in 7.5 years. 😀
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:13 am
Noch besser. More ads to report to Yael. I just got an ad in this thread for sirloin topped with butter at some restaurant chain. Treif , gid hanashe, and basar v’chalav in one dish!

I get these ads nowhere else!
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:27 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Noch besser. More ads to report to Yael. I just got an ad in this thread for sirloin topped with butter at some restaurant chain. Treif , gid hanashe, and basar v’chalav in one dish!

I get these ads nowhere else!


Funny, I just got one for Outback Steakhouse. Maybe due to your post...
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:31 am
malki2 wrote:
Funny, I just got one for Outback Steakhouse. Maybe due to your post...


It’s because we’re women who are learning Gemara. It’s a slippery slope and the next stop on the slope is J4J or eating treif. Chas veshalom; I really shouldn’t joke about this. But the ads are bizarre!
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:40 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
It’s because we’re women who are learning Gemara. It’s a slippery slope and the next stop on the slope is J4J or eating treif. Chas veshalom; I really shouldn’t joke about this. But the ads are bizarre!


I guess we know what Rabbi Google’s opinion is on women learning Gemara.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:15 pm
Aylat wrote:
Thanks for the chizuk JoyInTheMorning. "If I go through the daf in any way at all I'll know more than if I didn't." Yes.
I also like your list of your ideal way to learn it, and then the ways you will learn if you can't manage that.

Brachot 14 ברכות יד

What is considered greeting? Speaking, rising, nodding, waving? If speaking- how long? Just shalom or a whole sentence or more?

Brachot 15 ברכות טו

Ok, so I was trying to learn the Gemara inside on Shabbat and got completely confused by
דיעבד אין לכתחילה לא
because I was reading אין as 'ein'=not, instead of as 'in'= yes (Aramaic). Doh! Realised my mistake when listened to a shiur motzsh.

Re the whole debate: who said this mishna.
Why are only some of the mishnayot recorded in the name of who said them? If they all were then it would make things a lot simpler and cut out most of the debate on this daf.


Regarding what a greeting consisted of: That’s a great question. I’d guess it was supposed to be short, and I’d guess it was verbal rather than a gesture.

I’m also going to take a wild guess and say that the length of the greeting might have been the equivalent of שלום עליך רבי or שלום עליך רבי ומורי since that unit of greeting is actually a halachic concept in davening; it’s the amount of time that can elapse when you’ve omitted something in the amida and can still go back and fix it.

But these are all guesses.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:49 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Regarding what a greeting consisted of: That’s a great question. I’d guess it was supposed to be short, and I’d guess it was verbal rather than a gesture.

I’m also going to take a wild guess and say that the length of the greeting might have been the equivalent of שלום עליך רבי or שלום עליך רבי ומורי since that unit of greeting is actually a halachic concept in davening; it’s the amount of time that can elapse when you’ve omitted something in the amida and can still go back and fix it.

But these are all guesses.


Do you guys know how to use the עין משפט-נר מצוה on the top corner of the page?
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:49 pm
malki2 wrote:
BC that was R Yehuda Hanasi’s way of saying that this is the accepted Halacha. R Yehuda Hanasi was basically the last of the Tannaim. He compiled all of the statements of the previous Tannaim into the Mishna, and he also paskened the Halacha. But instead of saying Halacha KeRabbi Akiva or something like that, he wrote the Halacha without a name. As if to say that this is the Halacha and it’s not up for debate.

BTW the whole point of the concise, sometimes cryptic way RYN wrote the Mishnah was exactly for the purpose of bringing out all of the debating that makes up the Gemara. The Mishnah needed to be memorizable. Therefore he had to make it as short as possible. Yet it needed to be written in a way so that those who studied it would be able to get to the Halachot that are included in the Gemara. So he made it with inconsistencies and difficulties that the Rabbis would find when they delved into it. Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZYL explains all this when he discusses the monumental accomplishment that was the Mishnah. He also says that RYN didn’t do this on his own. He was the genius behind it, but he had hundreds of scholars working for him who compiled all of Torah Shebe’al Peh, including all the Baraitot and other statements of Chazal and sifted through all of them to decide exactly what would be included in the Mishnah. (The Baraitot are called such because they were excluded from the Mishnah (“bar” means ״outside”) He also needed tremendous funding for this, some of which he received from the Roman Emperor Antoninus, with whom he had a close relationship.

So every time you find something “wrong” with a Mishnah, and ask why it wasn’t written some other way, you are actually fulfilling the purpose for which the Mishnah was written. So keep asking the questions!


So I was also thinking something along these lines - that תורה שבעל פה was not supposed to be written down - it was a הוראת שעה and the Mishna was deliberately written as concise notes so that the tradition from Rebbe to Talmid would still be essential and it couldn't be learned on its own.
But why is the attribution of an opinion important enough to debate about? It wouldn't make the Mishna much longer to add דברי ר יהודה or whatever instead of leaving it unattributed. It just seems like such a waste of a debate.

Also we specifically learn that האומר דבר בשם אומרו מביא גאולה לעולם (from Esther) and the Gemara is so careful to record the chain of R' X said in the name of R' Y who said in the name of R' Z.


Re the bolded - I never knew that, but appropriately enough their relationship is mentioned in Rashi at the end of today's daf: ואע"ג דקיימי קצוצי עליה דרבי - שהיו שוטרים עומדין במצות אנטונינוס להכות ולהנקם בכל העומדים עליו.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:50 pm
malki2 wrote:
Do you guys know how to use the עין משפט-נר מצוה on the top corner of the page?


Nope. Care to share? Smile
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