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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:37 pm
Just curious malki2, have you joined us in learning the Daf?
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:42 pm
Brochos 16b

How was Tavi a big talmid chocham.
A cananite non jew can learn Torah ??

Why were the students chasing him from room to room, wasnt it obvious he was avoiding them
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:47 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Brochos 16b

How was Tavi a big talmid chocham.
A cananite non jew can learn Torah ??


Maybe he can’t be taught, but how can one stop him from listening in and learning on his own? (Especially if he lived in the house of a major talmid chacham like R’ Gamliel)
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:54 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Just curious malki2, have you joined us in learning the Daf?


Good question. Not really in an official capacity. I’m more like keeping abreast of the topics by reading your questions and trying to answer (or find the answers for) them. (I hope that answer doesn’t disqualify me from entering the discussions!)
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:57 pm
Not at all, but why not just do it then? (We won’t tell anybody lol)
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:57 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Maybe he can’t be taught, but how can one stop him from listening in and learning on his own? (Especially if he lived in the house of a major talmid chacham like R’ Gamliel)


Great answer!
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 12:03 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Not at all, but why not just do it then? (We won’t tell anybody lol)


I’d probably have time to read through it with the Artscroll, but I don’t feel like I would do it any justice. In a way I’m getting more out of it by looking at selected portions. But thanks. 😌 I really do enjoy the back-and-forth.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 12:13 am
malki2 wrote:
I’d probably have time to read through it with the Artscroll, but I don’t feel like I would do it any justice. In a way I’m getting more out of it by looking at selected portions. But thanks. 😌 I really do enjoy the back-and-forth.


Glad you’re enjoying Smile, but you only get bits and pieces this way and the focus is on what other people find to be of interest, rather than on what catches your attention. When I listen to R’Rosner’s Shiur, I get so much more knowledge and enjoyment than I do when listening to a chazarah Shiur (e.g. Daf illuminated review or 8-minute Daf) which just lists off the main points. I try to follow up on my Shiur with a chazarah Shiur, but so much is missed (Including the flavor of the Daf) . . . Try listening to a Shiur for a week. (I’m a big fan of R’Rosner, but there are other good magidei Shiur out there, too.) You can always quit, if it doesn’t work for you.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 12:25 am
[quote="Aylat"]

קרא וטעה ואינו יודע להיכן טעה
How can you know you made a mistake and not know where?

That could be if he messed up in one of the parts that are mentioned in both the first and second paragraph of shema. Like בשבתך בביתך so now he doesn’t know where he is holding.

סרכיה נקט
I wonder why Rashi thinks people are more fluent in the 3rd paragraph of the Shema than the others?

This fits with my last answer. Rashi says that once you say למען ירבו you don’t mess up. That’s because you pass the section which could be confused with the first paragraph. I’ve spaced out before and didn’t know if I was in the first or second paragraph. But once you say למען ירבו it’s impossible to make that mistake.

אומנין קורין בראש האילן ובראש הנדבך
What are employees allowed to do on their employers time? If they can't climb down a tree for Shema, and say a shortened Amida, I'm guessing checking facebook at work isn't allowed either Wink

Nor to post on Imamother. 😉😉

בשבתך בביתך פרט לעוסק במצוה
Is this the source for העוסק מן המצוה פטור מן המצווה? Or it's a specific example for Shema? If we have a general principle from somewhere else, why do we need the drasha here for Shema?

Good question.

כשם שאומרים לו לאדם על שורו ועל חמורו
How horrible, comparing a slave to an animal.

Please be careful using the word horrible regarding a statement of a Tanna. Besides, it says in Chumash שבו לכם פה עם החמור and Rashi explains עם הדומה לחמור. I understand that it’s not politically correct, and neither is the concept of slave ownership in general, but that’s what the Torah teaches. That being said, I guarantee you that Avraham and the Tannaim treated their slaves with more humanity than anyone else in history.

Another question, bit tangential, re mourning and slaves. I think this is talking about non-Jewish slaves who are obligated in a certain amount of mitzvot because of belonging to a Jew. Is that correct? What is their aveilut obligation? Does a non-Jewish slave sit shiva for their relative who is also a slave?

Good question. I would assume that they are not allowed to mourn as 1) They are obligated to their masters. And 2) the Gemara says that slaves do not have “Yachas”.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 12:51 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Glad you’re enjoying Smile, but you only get bits and pieces this way and the focus is on what other people find to be of interest, rather than on what catches your attention. When I listen to R’Rosner’s Shiur, I get so much more knowledge and enjoyment than I do when listening to a chazarah Shiur (e.g. Daf illuminated review or 8-minute Daf) which just lists off the main points. I try to follow up on my Shiur with a chazarah Shiur, but so much is missed (Including the flavor of the Daf) . . . Try listening to a Shiur for a week. (I’m a big fan of R’Rosner, but there are other good magidei Shiur out there, too.) You can always quit, if it doesn’t work for you.


You drive a hard bargain. . .
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 12:52 am
There’s no commitment necessary - so you don’t have much to lose . . . Wink
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 1:03 am
Aylat wrote:

Re the bolded - I never knew that, but appropriately enough their relationship is mentioned in Rashi at the end of today's daf: ואע"ג דקיימי קצוצי עליה דרבי - שהיו שוטרים עומדין במצות אנטונינוס להכות ולהנקם בכל העומדים עליו.


That happens to be absolutely crazy! I promise that I didn’t know it was on the Daf when I mentioned it. BTW, I told this to DH and he told me that it says somewhere (he said maybe in the name of the חתם סופר) that if you are learning one subject, and that same subject comes up later that day or week in a different Limud, it’s a Siman Tov from Shamayim!
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 5:03 am
I just finished Daf 16. The Koren is great, but it takes me longer, because there are more explanations to read :-D No time for writing up comments/questions now. I'm just glad to have made it 1/4 of the way through Berakhot.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 5:28 am
malki2 wrote:
That happens to be absolutely crazy! I promise that I didn’t know it was on the Daf when I mentioned it. BTW, I told this to DH and he told me that it says somewhere (he said maybe in the name of the חתם סופר) that if you are learning one subject, and that same subject comes up later that day or week in a different Limud, it’s a Siman Tov from Shamayim!


Well then, all of us doing (or observing and discussing) Daf Yomi have a Siman Tov MiShamayim, because near the bottom of Berakhot 16B, in the midst of the discussion of various Yehi Ratzons that the Tannaim and Amoraim would say after the Amida, is the Yehi Ratzon of Rav, which we say during Bircat Hachodesh. And that's coming up this Shabbat!

I also went to a shiur this past Shabbat where the person who gave the shiur quoted the Yehi Ratzon of R. Chiya. So that's also a Siman Tov MiShamayim.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 5:38 am
And of course, we all say (or should say) R. Yehuda Hanasi's Yehi Ratzon every day since it comes after Birkot Hashakhar, so everyone who learns this daf has a Siman Tov MiShamayim, no matter when they learn it.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 5:41 am
malki2 wrote:


קרא וטעה ואינו יודע להיכן טעה
How can you know you made a mistake and not know where?

That could be if he messed up in one of the parts that are mentioned in both the first and second paragraph of shema. Like בשבתך בביתך so now he doesn’t know where he is holding.
.


But it says go back to the beginning of the perek which implies that it could happen in any of the perakim.

malki2 wrote:

סרכיה נקט
I wonder why Rashi thinks people are more fluent in the 3rd paragraph of the Shema than the others?

This fits with my last answer. Rashi says that once you say למען ירבו you don’t mess up. That’s because you pass the section which could be confused with the first paragraph. I’ve spaced out before and didn’t know if I was in the first or second paragraph. But once you say למען ירבו it’s impossible to make that mistake. .


This is what the Rashba says. ברוך שכיוונת.


malki2 wrote:

כשם שאומרים לו לאדם על שורו ועל חמורו
How horrible, comparing a slave to an animal.

Please be careful using the word horrible regarding a statement of a Tanna. Besides, it says in Chumash שבו לכם פה עם החמור and Rashi explains עם הדומה לחמור. I understand that it’s not politically correct, and neither is the concept of slave ownership in general, but that’s what the Torah teaches. That being said, I guarantee you that Avraham and the Tannaim treated their slaves with more humanity than anyone else in history. .


Rebuke accepted.
Rephrase.
A human being is created b'tzelem Elokim and is in a category above animals. A higher subset of that category is the Jewish nation, which has an opt-in for any other humans who sincerely wish it. All humans have G-d-given commandments to fulfil, and I deduce thus have free will. Relating to a human being as only the output of the work they produce or as property stirs in me a deep feeling of outrage. Davka because I respect the Gemara and the chachamim, my response is not "oh well, a product of their time, move on," but rather, "I don't get it, I want an explanation!"

Obviously there are other instances where my deeply held instinctual values clash with mitzvot in the Torah (eg Amalek) or statements in Chazal. I deal with that neither by negating my own judgement nor belittling Torah; instead I try to delve deeper into both sides and attempt to reach a resolution. In the meantime (maybe my whole lifetime) I am okay with living with unresolved tension and saying, yeah, I don't get it.

This was more or less what I meant by my original comment. Longer but I hope clearer.

malki2 wrote:

Another question, bit tangential, re mourning and slaves. I think this is talking about non-Jewish slaves who are obligated in a certain amount of mitzvot because of belonging to a Jew. Is that correct? What is their aveilut obligation? Does a non-Jewish slave sit shiva for their relative who is also a slave?

Good question. I would assume that they are not allowed to mourn as 1) They are obligated to their masters. And 2) the Gemara says that slaves do not have “Yachas”.


Do you have the source for that second statement? What does it mean?
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 5:43 am
malki2 wrote:
That happens to be absolutely crazy! I promise that I didn’t know it was on the Daf when I mentioned it. BTW, I told this to DH and he told me that it says somewhere (he said maybe in the name of the חתם סופר) that if you are learning one subject, and that same subject comes up later that day or week in a different Limud, it’s a Siman Tov from Shamayim!


I heard this a long time ago in seminary, don't know source.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 5:54 am
Aylat wrote:
Do you have the source for that second statement? What does it mean?


They are talking about yichus. It was important to know each person's lineage for purposes of marriage. (This is still considered a relatively big deal today, though there have been so many rapes of Jewish women over the ages -- I'm thinking of the Cossacks, but I know there were many other rapes that went on -- that I don't really understand how anyone can *know* with certainty any person's yichus.)

Rabbanit Farber said that the issue of yichus is discussed more in Ketuvot. That's coming up in summer and fall 2022. Something to look forward to! The schedule and the long lookahead remind me of graduate school, where we really had to think of what we'd be doing years ahead. Though most of us finished in 5-6 years, not 7.5 years. But, at least I know how to buckle down for the long haul. I hope.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 8:00 am
Hi Ayalat. I hope this answers your question about the slaves: I would say that the Chachamim were just speaking in broader terms, I.e., that at the end of the day, the relationship between an owner in the slaves is one of property ownership, and respect, it’s similar to ownership of chattel. I’m sure though that Chazal understood and practiced the concept of tzelem Elokim. It’s important to keep in mind that the Chachamim in the Gemara spoke in cold, legalistic terms, and to focus on the halachot behind their words as opposed to their possible connotations. This does take a lot of getting used to. I don’t know if this was useful to you though.

Regarding your point about Rabban Gamliel, we see from the next Mishna that he lost his wife. So I would assume that he married young, and was then widowed, and then re-married.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 8:56 am
malki2 wrote:
Hi Ayalat. I hope this answers your question about the slaves: I would say that the Chachamim were just speaking in broader terms, I.e., that at the end of the day, the relationship between an owner in the slaves is one of property ownership, and respect, it’s similar to ownership of chattel. I’m sure though that Chazal understood and practiced the concept of tzelem Elokim.


There's different types of property, מטלטלין and קרקע, with different laws. Which does slaves fall into? Does it have its own category?
"The relationship is owner and slave". As opposed to first degree family relative, therefore don't sit Shiva for a slave, despite them being part of the household. (I'm guessing at the reasoning behind those who thought you do sit Shiva.) But a slave is a person, and if the reaction when a person dies is only about financial loss, seems to me something is missing.

malki2 wrote:

It’s important to keep in mind that the Chachamim in the Gemara spoke in cold, legalistic terms, and to focus on the halachot behind their words as opposed to their possible connotations. This does take a lot of getting used to. I don’t know if this was useful to you though.

Well, yes and no. Telling us that R Elazar (?) learned halacha X while his friends were setting up his chuppa isn't technically necessary. It's obviously supposed to add something beyond.

I know you are sensitive to criticism of Chazal and I commend you for that. I hope you understand that I am asking in good faith, so to speak, and not לקנטר as Rashi and Tosefot say on today's daf (17).

malki2 wrote:

Regarding your point about Rabban Gamliel, we see from the next Mishna that he lost his wife. So I would assume that he married young, and was then widowed, and then re-married.


Spoiler! Thanks. I knew I should be learning the mishna ahead to understand better.
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