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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 7:58 am
I can give some of these a stab: (Some of my answers appear within the blue quoted area)

Aylat wrote:
Brachot 10b
:ברכות י


אפילו בעל החלומות אומר לו לאדם למחר הוא מת - אל ימנע עצמו מן הרחמים

Interesting thought. The person in the Torah called בעל החלומות is Yosef בראשית לז:יט, but when he tells the baker: your dream means you'll be executed, the baker gives up and accepts his fate. Maybe it wasn't written in stone and could have been averted by his prayer.[/b]

It seems like this is a mesora specifically for Bnei Yisrael. He didn’t have that mesora.

אלא טעה בדשמואל
Is this referring to Shmuel haNavi or to Shmuel in the Gemara? (Is he a tanna or an amora?)

Shmuel the Amora.

מכאן שהאשה מכרת באורחין יותר מן האיש
Cool!
And how horrible - s-xual harassment from Gehazi. And didn't Elisha realise his servant was a no-good guy? It's not the only unpleasant thing he did.

I assume that he appeared to be righteous and hid his wickedness. Even here, we only know what he did because the Gemara tells us. Meaning it looked like he just went to push her away. But the Gemara explains that his intent was to grope her.

אמרו לו: כדי היית לחוב בעצמך שעברת על דברי בית הלל
Yikes! He didn't contradict the teaching of בית הלל. Aren't we taught that it's good to try and fulfil all opinions if we can. (Spoiler: I've already listened to daf yud alef this morning and this question is discussed further there. But ultimately my question remains.)


Well we see from later in the Gemara that by specifically going out of your way to lie down, you give the impression that you are stating that the Halacha is like Beis Shamai. Also, I don’t know if this is true, but I think that BH is understanding by ובלכתך בדרך that you should specifically say Shema in whatever position you happen to be in at the time. So if you bedavka change your position, you are not going like BH.


Last edited by malki2 on Tue, Jan 14 2020, 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 8:02 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
I don’t know who you are, but I suspect I’m from your world. I don’t know anyone either IRL, who is learning Gemara (and my friends don’t know about me.). This is why I really get chizuk and inspiration (not to mention knowledge) from a thread like this and the knowledge that I am not actually alone.

I think if you try it for a week, you might be surprised to find out that you’d really enjoy it. Learning has definitely enriched my life - both Halacha l’Ma’aseh and in feeling a greater sense of connection through continued thinking in learning. You can easily listen to shiurim through podcasts (or online) while driving or engaged in boring household tasks. You don’t need any prior background in learning Gemara (I had none - BY education) and it can be done in private. If you do, I’d love to welcome you into our community if learners. (You sound like someone who thinks and cares about things.) Smile


I did mention before that I’ve looked up Gemaras before . . . But thanks for the welcome 😌
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:26 am
(Sorry for the lack of proper formatting, I'm on my phone.)

Brachot 10b

Malki2: "It seems like this is a mesora specifically for Bnei Yisrael. He didn’t have that mesora."
Where do you infer that from? מקובלני מבית אבי אבא? That definitely makes it seem that most people didn't know that. But now that you've drawn my attention to those words, I wonder why Yeshayahu didn't have that mesora, although he is related to the kings Yehuda.


Last edited by Aylat on Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:27 am
Brachot 10b

Malki2: "I assume that he appeared to be righteous and hid his wickedness. Even here, we only know what he did because the Gemara tells us. Meaning it looked like he just went to push her away. But the Gemara explains that his intent was to grope her."

Good point.


Last edited by Aylat on Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:29 am
Brachot 10b

Malki2: "Shmuel the Amora."

Thank you. In which case, how fascinating that the Gemara relates Chizkiyahu's mistake to the teaching of someone who lived a thousand years later.


Last edited by Aylat on Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:32 am
malki2 wrote:

Well we see from later in the Gemara that by specifically going out of your way to lie down, you give the impression that you are stating that the Halacha is like Beis Shamai. .

That's true. You shouldn't do it but why is it so so terrible?

malki2 wrote:

Also, I don’t know if this is true, but I think that BH is understanding by ובלכתך בדרך that you should specifically say Shema in whatever position you happen to be in at the time. So if you bedavka change your position, you are not going like BH.

Not sure if that's correct, but I didn't go through any of the mefarshim.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:34 am
malki2 wrote:
I can give some of these a stab.


Thank you! This is exactly what I was hoping for- a back-and-forth exchange of ideas. You've improved my understanding.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:53 am
Aylat wrote:
Brachot 10a

Malki2: "Shmuel the Amora."

Thank you. In which case, how fascinating that the Gemara relates Chizkiyahu's mistake to the teaching of someone who lived a thousand years later.


I assume that Shmuel was just transmitting a Halacha that had been part of his mesora. Not that he originated it.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:13 am
[quote{That's true. You shouldn't do it but why is it so so terrible?[/quote]

I don’t know if it’s that he was chayav misa per se, but maybe that he put his life in danger and did not have the shmira of following the Halacha correctly.

Or maybe you can say that since we are so serious about paskening like Bais Hillel, so maybe going against this would be akin to Zakein Mamre... What
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:19 am
Just one more idea (You got my mind racing!):
Maybe the depth behind Bais Hillel’s opinion is that the tenets of Shema ate supposed to be so much a part of our nature that we should say it specifically in the position in which we find ourselves at the time that we are saying it to show that our Emuna is completely a part of our everyday lives. So to specifically go out of one’s way to not do this actually detracts from the concept of what Shema is all about.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:34 am
malki2 wrote:
I assume that Shmuel was just transmitting a Halacha that had been part of his mesora. Not that he originated it.


Exactly! But it's attributed to him rather than to whomever it originated with. Chizkiyahu didn't learn it from Shmuel the Amora, but yet it says, טעה בדשמואל. Why?
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:37 am
malki2 wrote:
[quote{That's true. You shouldn't do it but why is it so so terrible?


I don’t know if it’s that he was chayav misa per se, but maybe that he put his life in danger and did not have the shmira of following the Halacha correctly.

Or maybe you can say that since we are so serious about paskening like Bais Hillel, so maybe going against this would be akin to Zakein Mamre... What[/quote]

I assume he's not literally חייב מיתה but it's still strong language.
The זקן ממרא is an interesting direction. Does refer to just acting against the majority opinion or specifically to teaching it? I can't remember. Here there are implications of teaching - someone might learn the wrong thing from your action.

ETA
I just remembered the incident of Rabbi Yehoshua(?) and Raban Gamliel(?) about the date of Yom Kippur, and Rabbi Yehoshua came before Rabban Gamliel on the day that was YK according to him (Rabbi Yehoshua) with his stick and purse. And the importance of unified keeping of halacha.
I also just found this (Google search) which is relevant to this point.
משרבו תלמידי שמאי והלל שלא שימשו כל צרכן - רבו מחלוקות בישראל, ונעשית תורה כשתי תורות
:סנהדרין פח


Last edited by Aylat on Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:39 am
malki2 wrote:
Just one more idea (You got my mind racing!):
Maybe the depth behind Bais Hillel’s opinion is that the tenets of Shema ate supposed to be so much a part of our nature that we should say it specifically in the position in which we find ourselves at the time that we are saying it to show that our Emuna is completely a part of our everyday lives. So to specifically go out of one’s way to not do this actually detracts from the concept of what Shema is all about.


Nice.

What would Beit Shammai be teaching us then (philosophically speaking)?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:44 am
malki2 wrote:
[quote{That's true. You shouldn't do it but why is it so so terrible?


I don’t know if it’s that he was chayav misa per se, but maybe that he put his life in danger and did not have the shmira of following the Halacha correctly.

Or maybe you can say that since we are so serious about paskening like Bais Hillel, so maybe going against this would be akin to Zakein Mamre... What[/quote]

Yes, exactly. It wasn’t the lying down, but the fact that he was clearly negating what Hillel said. If R. Tarfon had been lying down at home, that wouldn’t have been bad. In fact, it would have been consistent with what Hillel
said, since Hillel said you could do your preference (standing or lying) wrt Shema. But since in this case no one would prefer to lie in the middle of the street , it’s clear that he was *not* following Hillel.

Also, Rabbanit Farber has made clear that when Chazal said that someone was chayav mitah for something, it often doesn’t literally mean that they are truly deserving of death. It was Chazal’s way of indicating severe displeasure. It was often used when they felt that people weren’t taking a halacha seriously enough.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:47 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Yes, exactly. It wasn’t the lying down, but the fact that he was clearly negating what Hillel said. If R. Tarfon had been lying down at home, that wouldn’t have been bad. In fact, it would have been consistent with what Hillel
said, since Hillel said you could do your preference (standing or lying) wrt Shema. But since in this case no one would prefer to lie in the middle of the street , it’s clear that he was *not* following Hillel.

Also, Rabbanit Farber has made clear that when Chazal said that someone was chayav mitah for something, it often doesn’t literally mean that they are truly deserving of death. It was Chazal’s way of indicating severe displeasure. It was often used when they felt that people weren’t taking a halacha seriously enough.


Thanks JoyInTheMorning and malki2, I feel I've got an answer to that question now.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:51 am
Aylat wrote:
Nice.

What would Beit Shammai be teaching us then (philosophically speaking)?


Beit Shammai learned the halacha from the literal meaning of the words in the Torah.

בשכבך when you are lying down

ובקומך when you are standing up
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 12:01 pm
One more thing about Berakhot 10: Rabbanit Farber pointed out that two women are recognized in this Daf for their insight: Beruriah for recognizing the distinction between wishing for the destruction of חטאים (sins) vs חוטאים (sinners), and the Shunamite woman for recognizing Elisha’s character. And in both cases, women’s perceptiveness was explicitly confirmed by Chazal.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 12:02 pm
Aylat wrote:
Nice.

What would Beit Shammai be teaching us then (philosophically speaking)?


Good question. Maybe that there’s a specific obligation to say Shema officially in both of the positions that we find ourselves in through the course of the day. Similar to BH philosophically, but a little different.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 1:06 pm
Reading this makes me realize that even learning it inside, I'm not as smart as many of you. Kol hakavod to you all.

I have a lingering question from a few dafs ago, and I've asked quite a few people this over the years and have never really gotten an answer.

If it says that there's one regah that Hashem gets angry, then when is this regah? Is it once per a 24 hour cycle, with the morning timing (during the first three hours of the day) coinciding with Israel's time zone, meaning that the regah could be in different times of the day for chutz la'aretz? Or is it a regah per time zone, in which case there are multiple times during the 24 hour period that Hashem gets angry?

I never understood things like this.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 14 2020, 1:45 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Reading this makes me realize that even learning it inside, I'm not as smart as many of you. Kol hakavod to you all.
.


You deserve that kol hakavod too! Learning inside independently? I'm impressed.

imorethanamother wrote:

I have a lingering question from a few dafs ago, and I've asked quite a few people this over the years and have never really gotten an answer.

If it says that there's one regah that Hashem gets angry, then when is this regah? Is it once per a 24 hour cycle, with the morning timing (during the first three hours of the day) coinciding with Israel's time zone, meaning that the regah could be in different times of the day for chutz la'aretz? Or is it a regah per time zone, in which case there are multiple times during the 24 hour period that Hashem gets angry?

I never understood things like this.


Fascinating question, didn't think of this.
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