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Discussion on the Daf - Brachot
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:03 am
Ayalat wrote:

I know you are sensitive to criticism of Chazal and I commend you for that. I hope you understand that I am asking in good faith, so to speak, and not לקנטר as Rashi and Tosefot say on today's daf (17).

I know that you were. I’m sorry for making your post the subject of my rant. Your posts are really super and thought provoking. So are everyone’s for that matter.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:47 am
There's different types of property, מטלטלין and קרקע, with different laws. Which does slaves fall into? Does it have its own category?
"The relationship is owner and slave". As opposed to first degree family relative, therefore don't sit Shiva for a slave, despite them being part of the household. (I'm guessing at the reasoning behind those who thought you do sit Shiva.) But a slave is a person, and if the reaction when a person dies is only about financial loss, seems to me something is missing.


You have a good few years for this one...

Bava Kama talks a lot about this

I think Kiddushin does too
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:00 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
There's different types of property, מטלטלין and קרקע, with different laws. Which does slaves fall into? Does it have its own category?
"The relationship is owner and slave". As opposed to first degree family relative, therefore don't sit Shiva for a slave, despite them being part of the household. (I'm guessing at the reasoning behind those who thought you do sit Shiva.) But a slave is a person, and if the reaction when a person dies is only about financial loss, seems to me something is missing.


You have a good few years for this one...

Bava Kama talks a lot about this

I think Kiddushin does too


I can be patient. I have lots of unanswered questions (about all types of things). If I don't find the answers while I'm here, I'm hoping that after 120 it will all make sense.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:03 am
malki2 wrote:
Ayalat wrote:

I know you are sensitive to criticism of Chazal and I commend you for that. I hope you understand that I am asking in good faith, so to speak, and not לקנטר as Rashi and Tosefot say on today's daf (17).

I know that you were. I’m sorry for making your post the subject of my rant. Your posts are really super and thought provoking. So are everyone’s for that matter.


(Did you?) Totally not offended, just wanted to clarify because tone on internet doesn't come across, and it is a touchy topic. We can take it as read from now on Wink

Absolutely, yours included. Thank you all, you are inspiring and energising.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:37 am
Aylat wrote:
I can be patient. I have lots of unanswered questions (about all types of things). If I don't find the answers while I'm here, I'm hoping that after 120 it will all make sense.


I don’t have that much difficulty waiting for an answer, when it comes to slavery, because although I find it upsetting, slavery no longer exists, and I don’t know anyone who is a slave, so it’s much easier for me to say it’s disturbing, and I don’t get it, but I can move on and wait for an answer (possibly when Moshiach comes or in the next world). When it comes to the way women are looked at and dealt with, it’s much more personal and harder for me to deal with. I am sort of dreading Kedushin and Yevamos, etc., but I determined to keep learning, because that’s the only way I have any hope of seeing the big picture and possibly coming to understand. I hope everyone will help me to deal with it, when the time comes . . . (No pressure Wink )
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:47 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
I don’t have that much difficulty waiting for an answer, when it comes to slavery, because although I find it upsetting, slavery no longer exists, and I don’t know anyone who is a slave, so it’s much easier for me to say it’s disturbing, and I don’t get it, but I can move on and wait for an answer (possibly when Moshiach comes or in the next world). When it comes to the way women are looked at and dealt with, it’s much more personal and harder for me to deal with. I am sort of dreading Kedushin and Yevamos, etc., but I determined to keep learning, because that’s the only way I have any hope of seeing the big picture and possibly coming to understand. I hope everyone will help me to deal with it, when the time comes . . . (No pressure Wink )


Yes to both your points: slavery vs. women, and learning being the only way.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 12:10 pm
Brochos 17a

Very yesodisdiker...daf..

Reb Yochanan said hello to EVERYONE first, even the nochri in the street
This should be posted in every shul and srptore in Lakewood

How do women get zchus haTorah..
Probably the most distorted and misused Gam in all of Shas

I dont think it means , send your husband to Collel , and then talk frivolities all day, and walk around feeling like you are holy of holies..l
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 12:20 pm
17b

Sounds like Metlife to me...

All the security workers, and most of the media were awestruck by the event
How many were motivated to explore Judaism

There are also many gem on todays daf that you will recognize from the siddur
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 1:02 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Brochos 17a

Very yesodisdiker...daf..

Reb Yochanan said hello to EVERYONE first, even the nochri in the street
This should be posted in every shul and srptore in Lakewood l


Hey, no generalizations please. While I also find this offensive, and wish that it wouldn’t happen, I came to realize that it’s more of a New York (meaning standard New Yorker, not Jewish New Yorker) mentality than a Lakewood thing. And very many people will greet others (at least men to men and women to women) on the street on Shabbos. I also think that some people are just pre-occupied/spaced out. I don’t find people in Lakewood to be particularly snobby or anything. Again, I’m all for greeting others; I’m just trying to be DLKZ a little.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 2:39 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Brachot 10
ברכות י

One takeaway I have from today’s Daf is to always keep in mind (and verbally acknowledge) that healing comes from Hashem - not the medication or other medical procedure.

According to the Shulchan Aruch (230:4) before bloodletting, one was supposed to say: יהר"מ ה' אלהי שיהא עסק זה לי לרפואה כי רופא חנם אתה in order to verbally acknowledge that we are just doing our hishtadlus, but healing comes from Hashem. The Mishna Berurah says that today we should say this before taking medication. B”N, I hope to remember to say it before taking any medication or undergoing any medical procedure.


Question: can one say this on Shabbat or is it classed as a personal request?
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 2:52 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Sorry to go backwards, but I didn’t get to learn today’s Daf, yet.

In reviewing last week’s blatt over Shabbos, I was struck by the story of Shaul’s kapparah. I understand that it is assumed that he received kapparah because he was told he would be in Gan Eden with Shmuel, and because he was later described positively, but I don’t understand why the assumption is that the kapparah was due to the embarrassment rather than due to his being killed in battle the next day. It would seem to me that the embarrassment was relatively minor, in that it was in private rather than in public and it was with a person who was no longer in this world and (presumably) knew about Shaul’s disgrace, in any case. Being informed of his (and his son’s) impending death at the hands of their enemies, accepting this decree and going forth the next day in accordance with Hashem’s will, and finally suffering from a brutal, untimely death would seem to me like a much more likely reason for his kapparah. Another issue is the bein adam l’chaveiro aspect of his actions, which should require him to be me’fayeis those whom he wronged, and as can be seen with the story of the Giv’onim, there is no indication that he did that. . . The more I think of this, the more perplexing it seems.


I don't know why embarrassment would have to be public in order to do achieve all that it should.

As to your point about bein adam l chavayro, the story of the Gevonim really addresses all of those concerns.

This is how I I understand the story of the Gevonim. Towards the end of David's rule, the Gevonim came to Hashem with a tayna on Shaul. They lost 7 people and their livelihood (and subsequently starved) when Shaul killed out Nov. When one brings a tayna to Hashem, He not only judges the accused party, but everyone involved. In this case, Hashem found Shaul guilty, and Bnei Yisrael guilty of not properly eulogizing Shaul when he died. Therefore, Hashem sends the famine. When David cries out to Hashem, Hashem sends him to the Gevonim. David gets there and is told that they are fine with him, their problem was with Shaul, and that is when David orders the death of 7 of Shaul's sons to be keneged the 7 Gevonim who died. Then the passuk calls Shaul Bechir Hashem, and Rashi says a bas kol called this out. I think this part is to be mechaper for the fact that Shaul never had a proper eulogy, but also, even though he got olam haba, there were still loose ends to be tied up. This story illustrates how everything is done with cheshbon by Hashem.

We aren't always given all of the details. Maybe they were part of the Mesorah, and got lost. What we do have is the words of the pessukim and divrei chazal. So much that was pashut to chazal did not make it's way down to us. It is our avoda when we learn to try to reconcile the stories that we read in the pessukom with what we know from chazal though often times it seems counter intuitive.
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 2:59 pm
I guess what I am trying to say is, when we accept without a doubt that divrei chazal is true, instead of being indignant by challenges to our understanding or values, we can proactively and creatively try and learn out what we are supposed to, instead of getting upset or Gd forbid doubting the words of chazal or the emes and ethics of Torah.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 3:03 pm
malki2 wrote:
Hey, no generalizations please. While I also find this offensive, and wish that it wouldn’t happen, I came to realize that it’s more of a New York (meaning standard New Yorker, not Jewish New Yorker) mentality than a Lakewood thing. And very many people will greet others (at least men to men and women to women) on the street on Shabbos. I also think that some people are just pre-occupied/spaced out. I don’t find people in Lakewood to be particularly snobby or anything. Again, I’m all for greeting others; I’m just trying to be DLKZ a little.


I agree with this. Many societal/cultural norms are community specific and can be difficult for outsiders to fully understand. We can all promote and encourage positive behaviors, but calling out particular communities generally makes members of that community defensive and resistant and is rarely helpful. In my experience, every community has things to respect and learn from, so let’s all look for the positive in each other (“shenir’eh kol echad ma’alas chaveireinu, v’lo chesronam”) and all sections of klal yisrael.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 3:09 pm
chicco wrote:
I guess what I am trying to say is, when we accept without a doubt that divrei chazal is true, instead of being indignant by challenges to our understanding or values, we can proactively and creatively try and learn out what we are supposed to, instead of getting upset or Gd forbid doubting the words of chazal or the emes and ethics of Torah.


I don’t think the question about Sha’ul’s kapparah was meant as a challenge to ChaZaL. (Certainly not by me.) It was meant as a sincere question that I found perplexing, because it’s not how I would think. (I also posted what DH said - that being more familiar with the text and language would make it more clear.). Can we also be DLKZ that people, who have a question are asking sincerely - not to chv’sh challenge the Torah, etc.? I don’t think that is the intent of anyone on here.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 3:22 pm
Aylat wrote:
Question: can one say this on Shabbat or is it classed as a personal request?


That’s a very good question. Here is the quote from the Shulchan Aruch:

הנכנס להקיז דם אומר יהר"מ ה' אלהי שיהא עסק זה לי לרפואה כי רופא חנם אתה ולאחר שהקיז יאמר ברוך רופא חולים:

And from the Mishna Berurah:

(ו) להקיז דם - וה"ה בכל מידי דרפואה יאמר זה ולא יחשוב שתהיה איזה דבר לו רפואה אלא ע"י הבורא ית"ש ולכן ע"י תפלה זו ישים בטחונו בו ויבקש ממנו שתהיה לו לרפואה:

It doesn’t mention Shabbos, but on the other hand, one does not usually take medications on Shabbos, either. . .
We also don’t wish someone Refuah Shelaimah on Shabbos. How about saying “Gezuntheit” or “Asusa?”

I’ll see if I can locate an answer.
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chicco




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 3:28 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
I don’t think the question about Sha’ul’s kapparah was meant as a challenge to ChaZaL. (Certainly not by me.) It was meant as a sincere question that I found perplexing, because it’s not how I would think. (I also posted what DH said - that being more familiar with the text and language would make it more clear.). Can we also be DLKZ that people, who have a question are asking sincerely - not to chv’sh challenge the Torah, etc.? I don’t think that is the intent of anyone on here.


I'm really sorry if it came out that way. That aspect of my response was definitely not directed at you or anyone in particular. I was more trying to express my approach to learning. I actually believe that any woman on this thread obviously believes Torah to be true and work hard to make it a true part of their lives. Kol hakavod, and again my apologies. There was truly no judgement or criticism meant.

ETA, I was really just sharing my excitement for how I approach things.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:52 pm
chicco wrote:
I'm really sorry if it came out that way. That aspect of my response was definitely not directed at you or anyone in particular. I was more trying to express my approach to learning. I actually believe that any woman on this thread obviously believes Torah to be true and work hard to make it a true part of their lives. Kol hakavod, and again my apologies. There was truly no judgement or criticism meant.

ETA, I was really just sharing my excitement for how I approach things.


Smile
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:05 pm
One of my favorite ma’amarei chazal is on Brachos 17a:

אֶחָד הַמַּרְבֶּה וְאֶחָד הַמַּמְעִיט וּבִלְבַד שֶׁיְּכַוֵּין לִבּוֹ לַשָּׁמַיִם״.

It gives me some comfort, when I am unable (or not permitted) to engage in all the learning and mitzvos that I want to. . .
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 1:05 am
Cant wait for tomorrows daf

Will make hot cocoa , sit by fireplace and read about the 2 spirits talking to each other in the cemetary
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 2:06 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Cant wait for tomorrows daf

Will make hot cocoa , sit by fireplace and read about the 2 spirits talking to each other in the cemetary


Laugh okay you've got me excited now!
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