Home

Discussion on the Daf - Brachot
  Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 11, 12, 13 ... 31, 32, 33  Next  Last >>
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Judaism


View latest: 24h 48h 72h


JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 4:34 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
One of my favorite ma’amarei chazal is on Brachos 17a:

אֶחָד הַמַּרְבֶּה וְאֶחָד הַמַּמְעִיט וּבִלְבַד שֶׁיְּכַוֵּין לִבּוֹ לַשָּׁמַיִם״.

It gives me some comfort, when I am unable (or not permitted) to engage in all the learning and mitzvos that I want to. . .


What are you not permitted to do?
Back to top

JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 5:04 am
Berakhot 17.

I just got through Daf 17. It was so exciting, seeing that beautiful epilogue to the amidah that we say on Yom Kippur. My question, which is similar to a question I asked a few days ago about nusach is: who made up the nusach of the tefillot that we say today? How and why were certain things decided, eg., that אלוקי עד שלא נוצרתי would be reserved for Yom Kippur, but that אלוקי נצור לשוני מרע would be said after every amidah, everyday? I know that for the most part our siddur is very similar to the one that ר עמרם גאון compiled; did he make the decisions or did they happen earlier?

It was also interesting to see נשים במאי זכיין in context. Seen in context, it totally — for me at least — did not have the tone that I had assumed from reading (part of) the Imamother thread with that title. (ETA: in that thread, an amother quotes a Meiri that understands the Gemara as I did. Baruch shekivanti.) The context is that the Gemara has just pointed out that women have a greater reward than men, quoting the pasuk from ישעיה saying that women are content and confident. Given that context, and given the fact that Chazal clearly believed that learning Torah was the most important and joyful activity, it’s understandable that they would ask: what explains this reward for women? It was a fact at that time that the vast majority of women did not learn Torah, so how could they get this elevated status?

The answer was to attribute to women reward for whatever they could do that encouraged Torah study, even though at that time they weren’t doing it themselves. It wasn’t saying that women could only get reward that way. It wasn’t saying that women couldn’t learn Torah. It is a generous statement, not a restrictive one. I for one am touched that the chachamim would go out of their way to figure out how women could get rewarded for Torah study even when they weren’t directly involved in it.

I totally agree with naturalmom5 that this has been quoted out of context and twisted to mean something that Chazal never said and never intended.


Last edited by JoyInTheMorning on Tue, Jan 21 2020, 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 6:29 am
Quoted instead of edited, so now deleted.
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 8:01 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Berakhot 17

It was also interesting to see נשים במאי זכיין in context. Seen in context, it totally — for me at least — did not have the tone that I had assumed from reading (part of) the Imamother thread with that title. (ETA: in that thread, an amother quotes a Meiri that understands the Gemara as I did. Baruch shekivanti.) The context is that the Gemara has just pointed out that women have a greater reward than men, quoting the pasuk from ישעיה saying that women are content and confident. Given that context, and given the fact that Chazal clearly believed that learning Torah was the most important and joyful activity, it’s understandable that they would ask: what explains this reward for women? It was a fact at that time that the vast majority of women did not learn Torah, so how could they get this elevated status?

The answer was to attribute to women reward for whatever they could do that encouraged Torah study, even though at that time they weren’t doing it themselves. It wasn’t saying that women could only get reward that way. It wasn’t saying that women couldn’t learn Torah. It is a generous statement, not a restrictive one. I for one am touched that the chachamim would go out of their way to figure out how women could get rewarded for Torah study even when they weren’t directly involved in it.

I totally agree with naturalmom5 that this has been quoted out of context and twisted to mean something that Chazal never said and never intended.


So I looked up the Gemara in Sotah 21 which is referenced at the side of the page. There is more context in that Gemara. The Mishnah says that a Sotah who has zechut will have her punishment delayed by a few years. The Gemara asks what zechut. The Gemara says that it can’t be zechut of Torah because women are not commanded. Rashi there explains that because they are not commanded, even if they learn, they will not get the same zechut as the men. The Gemara says that it is in the zechut of taking their sons to learn etc.
Back to top

amother




Mustard
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 9:37 am
malki2 wrote:
So I looked up the Gemara in Sotah 21 which is referenced at the side of the page. There is more context in that Gemara. The Mishnah says that a Sotah who has zechut will have her punishment delayed by a few years. The Gemara asks what zechut. The Gemara says that it can’t be zechut of Torah because women are not commanded. Rashi there explains that because they are not commanded, even if they learn, they will not get the same zechut as the men. The Gemara says that it is in the zechut of taking their sons to learn etc.


I don’t have the time to look it up right now, but I believe Ben Azzai held that a father should teach his daughter Torah for just that reason - so that she should have the zechus of Torah if she was ever in the situation of Sotah. . .
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 9:52 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
I don’t have the time to look it up right now, but I believe Ben Azzai held that a father should teach his daughter Torah for just that reason - so that she should have the zechus of Torah if she was ever in the situation of Sotah. . .


Mustard, (what a name!) you are correct. The Mishnah says exactly that in the name of Ben Azzai. But the Gemara does say what I said. צריך עיון. I’ll have to look at it later when I have time. Thanks for pointing that out.
Back to top

JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 10:07 am
malki2 wrote:
So I looked up the Gemara in Sotah 21 which is referenced at the side of the page. There is more context in that Gemara. The Mishnah says that a Sotah who has zechut will have her punishment delayed by a few years. The Gemara asks what zechut. The Gemara says that it can’t be zechut of Torah because women are not commanded. Rashi there explains that because they are not commanded, even if they learn, they will not get the same zechut as the men. The Gemara says that it is in the zechut of taking their sons to learn etc.


My focus is on Daf Yomi partly so that I can learn Gemara in context, not as it’s presented by other people, whether or not they have agendas for whatever reason. I could fall into this trap and start looking at Sotah 20 and read the Rashi. But I wouldn’t be learning it in context. I don’t know all that Rashi said there. I don’t know if the Gemara is talking about all women there or some subset that has particular relevance to the sugya there.

What I know now is that the quote of נשים במאי זכיין has not been presented to me and to other women in its proper context.

Iy”h I’ll learn Sotah 20 on April 18 2023. I’m in this for long haul as long as God gives me the strength. I hope you’ll be here then too and we can discuss it.
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 10:43 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
My focus is on Daf Yomi partly so that I can learn Gemara in context, not as it’s presented by other people, whether or not they have agendas for whatever reason. I could fall into this trap and start looking at Sotah 20 and read the Rashi. But I wouldn’t be learning it in context. I don’t know all that Rashi said there. I don’t know if the Gemara is talking about all women there or some subset that has particular relevance to the sugya there.

What I know now is that the quote of נשים במאי זכיין has not been presented to me and to other women in its proper context.

Iy”h I’ll learn Sotah 20 on April 18 2023. I’m in this for long haul as long as God gives me the strength. I hope you’ll be here then too and we can discuss it.


Not sure what you’re talking about, but there’s no agenda here. We’re all “talking in learning” and trying to get to the truth. That’s one of the main purposes of learning Torah BTW. Now Mesoret HaShas is right beside the text of the Gemara, and is as much as part of the Daf as anything else. And there’s a reason why it references Gemaras in other Masechtot. It’s not intellectually honest to just ignore a particular reference. Unless you are just truly learning the Daf as Bekiut. Which is no issue, but then we have to be careful not to mention other references as well such as Rishonim that are not “on the Daf”.


Last edited by malki2 on Tue, Jan 21 2020, 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

amother




Mustard
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:49 am
malki2 wrote:
Mustard, (what a name!) you are correct. The Mishnah says exactly that in the name of Ben Azzai. But the Gemara does say what I said. צריך עיון. I’ll have to look at it later when I have time. Thanks for pointing that out.


😝 I hate both the color and the food. I wouldn’t have chosen it - but I can’t take a chance on my identity getting out. (Maybe after all my kids are married . . .)
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 3:34 pm
I found it fascinating that Benayahu was such a great personality, and the example that the Navi uses to exemplify him was that he would dip in the ice to tovel before learning Torah. Maybe his greatness was due to the great reverence that he had for the Torah that he would not learn until he dipped, even if it meant breaking through the ice. I would have thought, hey, it’s bittul Torah, just wash your hands. But it seems like Hashem gave him extra success for this attribute. There are many stories of Tzadikim who were able to cover more ground than humanly possible because Hashem gave them the ability to absorb more Torah due to their righteousness.

It also made me think about what it would be like to break through ice to dip!
Back to top

Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 3:38 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Cant wait for tomorrows daf

Will make hot cocoa , sit by fireplace and read about the 2 spirits talking to each other in the cemetary


So many questions!!
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 4:04 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Cant wait for tomorrows daf

Will make hot cocoa , sit by fireplace and read about the 2 spirits talking to each other in the cemetary


Anyone find it interesting that the Gemara spent practically half an amud on this story, just to prove that the dead know what’s going on? There must be a Kabbalistic explanation or something. Naturalmom, you must have something to say about this.
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 4:49 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
😝 I hate both the color and the food. I wouldn’t have chosen it - but I can’t take a chance on my identity getting out. (Maybe after all my kids are married . . .)


I don’t mean to rub it in, but for the next 7.5 years you’re going to be known as “mustard” (unless someone starts a new thread and you try again). What Mazel! They could have at least given you Chartreuse or Periwinkle! 🤣
Back to top

amother




Mustard
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 7:38 pm
malki2 wrote:
I don’t mean to rub it in, but for the next 7.5 years you’re going to be known as “mustard” (unless someone starts a new thread and you try again). What Mazel! They could have at least given you Chartreuse or Periwinkle! 🤣


I know Tongue Out so many beautiful colors and this is what I end up with Cool . Oh the price we pay . . .
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:38 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
I don’t have the time to look it up right now, but I believe Ben Azzai held that a father should teach his daughter Torah for just that reason - so that she should have the zechus of Torah if she was ever in the situation of Sotah. . .


Ok, so I just looked up the Mishnah in Sotah and it does NOT say what you said. (First of all, how could it even mean that? Is Ben Azzai saying that someone should teach his daughter Torah to help her out in case she commits adultery?) What Ben Azzai does say is that a person should teach his daughter Torah, so that she should understand, in case she becomes a sotah but doesn’t die immediately, that it’s not because the waters are not working, but it is because she has some zechut that is pushing off the punishment of the waters, and she shouldn’t be מוציא לעז on the waters. The Gemara on 21a asks what this “zechus” is. It says that it can’t be the zechut of Talmud Torah, because women are not commanded to learn, so they will not get the שכר of a מצווה ועושה. Then the Gemara says, maybe it’s the zechut of her Mitzvot. The Gemara negates this as well, because a Mitzvah only protects at the time that one performs it. The Gemara finally arrives at the conclusion that the zechut is because she took her sons to learn Torah and wait for their husbands who go away to learn Torah.
Back to top

naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:46 pm
malki2 wrote:
Anyone find it interesting that the Gemara spent practically half an amud on this story, just to prove that the dead know what’s going on? There must be a Kabbalistic explanation or something. Naturalmom, you must have something to say about this.


On the simple level ,the Bais Yosef asks, why the Gam only says 'loeg l rash'. mocking the dead.
Isn't it disgracing the tzitzit to drag them on ground. He answers that the graves are elevated, so the only problem was mocking the dead.
The chosid didn't want people to realize he was having S Bayit problems, so he was hiding in the cemetary where no one would see him.
On a deeper level.
The Ben Yehoyada(the Ben Ish Chai) is bothered by the loshon the techeles were dragging on the floor. Only the 4 techeles strings ? What about the rest of the tzitzit. He says they weren't just walking around..
When Shas says shakli vazli, it means they were there to make tikunin and raise up nitzotzot.
Possibly we can understand this by looking at the Toldos Y Yosef, a talmid of the B Shem Tov, who wrote the first sefer on Chasidut.
In Parshas Tetzaveh he discusses the bigdi chuna in detail.
Relevant to our gam, is the concept of the me-il, which was all techeles,
The Gam' in Menachot, describes the techeles alludes to the sea which alludes to the sky to blueness, and ultimately the ciisi hacovod . Ultimately giving din v chesbom, the concept of death, hence the cemetary.
The tzadik who is alive, even after death, has purified his thoughts to go straight up.
His thoughts are at the level of techeles..

However, there are many rishoyim on the bottom of the me-il on the ground. Thats why the me-il has rimonim on the bottom. They symbolise the simple Jews and the reshoyim.
As we say, even the poshey yisroel are full of zchusim like a rimon...
Thats why they were in the cemetary. The great R Yonasan was trying to tell these neshomas of lowly yidden , theres still hope, grab on to my techeles. You can rise, I can make a tikun for you.
But R Chiya, who is the embodiment, of chiyas, life says. No, R Yonasan, there is no B Mikdash in our generation, no me-il, no techeles, no Cohen Godol...
The lowly neshomos will say, you need your own tikun, are you mocking us..
Thats not the approach for our generation...
But we can still be inspired by the concept of techeles...


Last edited by naturalmom5 on Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:49 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
On the simple level ,th e Bais Yosef asks, why the Gam only says 'loeg l rash'. mocking the dead.
Isn't it disgracing the tzitzit to drag them on ground. He answers that the graves are elevated, so the only problem was mocking the dead.
The chosid didn't want people to realize he was having S Bayit problems, so he was hiding in the cemetary where no one would see him.
On a deeper level.
The Ben Yehoyada(the Ben Ish Chai) is bothered by the loshon the techeles were dragging on the floor. Only the 4 techeles strings ? What about the rest of the tzitzit. He says they weren't just walking around..
When Shas says shakli vazli, it means they were there to make tikunin and raise up nitzotzot.
Possibly we can understand this by looking at the Toldos Y Yosef, a talmid of the B Shem Tov, who wrote the first sefer on Chasidut.
In Parshas Tetzaveh he discusses the bigdi chuna in detail.
Relevant to our gam, is the concept of the me-il, wwhich was all techeles,
The Gam' in Menachot, describes the techeles alludes to the sea which alludes to the sky to blueness, and ultimately the ciisi hacovod . Ultimately giving din v chesbom, the concept of death, hence the cemetary.
The tzadik who is alive, even after death, has purified his thoughts to go straight up.
His thoughts are at the level of techeles..

However, there are many rishoyim on the bottom of the me-il on the ground. Thats why the me-il has rimonim on the bottom. They symbolise the simple Jews and the reshoyim.
As we say, even the poshey yisroel are full of zchusim like a rimon...
Thats why they were in the cemetary. The great R Yonasan was trying to tell these neshomas of lowly yidden , theres still hope, grab on to my techeles. You can rise, I can make a tikun for you.
But R Chiya, who is the embodiment, of chiyas, life says. No, R Yonasan, there is no B Mikdash in our generation, no me-il, no techeles, no Cohen Godol...
The lowly neshomos will say, you need your own tikun, are you mocking us..
Thats not the approach for our generation...
But we can still be inspired by the concept of techeles...


Naturalmom, you didn’t disappoint!
Back to top

naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 22 2020, 11:30 am
Brochos 19a

If you see a Torah scholar commit a sin, don`t think bad of him
Perhaps he repented

My husband told me a joke

The Satmar Rov ztzl said

Dont judge him, he already wrote a tshuva, why the thing he did is mutar...
Back to top

naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 22 2020, 1:25 pm
More on 18b


R. Yonatan Eibshutz (Chiddushei Rabbeinu Yehonatan to Berakhot) suggests an interpretation to the mysterious story about the spirits of the dead that appears in Berakhot 18b. In that story, a man fights with his wife and goes to sleep in a cemetery. R. Yonatan suggests that this is a parable for an individual’s internal struggle between his spiritual and physical elements. In an attempt to strengthen his spiritual side, he takes the Talmud’s advice to “remember the day of death”.

In this experience, he hears two spirits communicating. These spirits represent the positive and negative drives. The former says to the latter, “let us travel behind the curtain”, meaning the Torah, which is the border between man and G-d, and “going behind” it is thus a reference to delving into the Torah, “to see what disasters are coming”, to see what is the cost of neglecting the Torah.

The “negative” spirit declines, claiming to be buried in a box of reeds, I.e. too submerged in material considerations to explore the Torah. The spirit who investigates discovers that whoever plants in the first quarter finds his crops destroyed by hail. This is a reference to the stage of youth, when priority must be given to creating a foundation of Torah education. During thls stage of life, one who attempts to tackle the world without first laying that foundation is destined to failure. That failure is represented by hail, which during the plagues in Egypt consisted of fire inside of ice. As fire represents Torah, this imagery suggests a small vestige of learning trapped and obscured by outside elements.

The spirit's next mission discovered a different scenario, that one who planted in the second quarter would find his crops afflicted with shidafon. This represents the stage of life where one who has built his spiritual foundation must now arrange for support for himself and his family. If he pushes this off, into the second quarter, he will again be uncsuccessful.

Now the individual, having received the message, is complete, and the husband and wife are no longer fighting. The wife then argues with the mother of materialistic spirit, again representing negative inclinations, and tells her that she will show her that her daughter is buried in reeds. The message is thus that chasing after material desires exclusively leads to the next generation being trapped within temporal concerns.

The next year, this man again revisits the cemetery experience. This year is representative of the later stages of life, when people are more contemplative and reflective upon mortality. This time, the spirits are talking again, and the invitation to explore Torah is suggested anew. This time, though, the materialistic spirit says, leave me alone, our argument has already been settled in your favor; in old age, it is clear to all (“is already known among the living”) that obsession with materialism is ultimately empty and a life without spiritual meaning will be regretted.
Back to top

chicco




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 22 2020, 1:38 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
More on 18b


R. Yonatan Eibshutz (Chiddushei Rabbeinu Yehonatan to Berakhot) suggests an interpretation to the mysterious story about the spirits of the dead that appears in Berakhot 18b. In that story, a man fights with his wife and goes to sleep in a cemetery. R. Yonatan suggests that this is a parable for an individual’s internal struggle between his spiritual and physical elements. In an attempt to strengthen his spiritual side, he takes the Talmud’s advice to “remember the day of death”.

In this experience, he hears two spirits communicating. These spirits represent the positive and negative drives. The former says to the latter, “let us travel behind the curtain”, meaning the Torah, which is the border between man and G-d, and “going behind” it is thus a reference to delving into the Torah, “to see what disasters are coming”, to see what is the cost of neglecting the Torah.

The “negative” spirit declines, claiming to be buried in a box of reeds, I.e. too submerged in material considerations to explore the Torah. The spirit who investigates discovers that whoever plants in the first quarter finds his crops destroyed by hail. This is a reference to the stage of youth, when priority must be given to creating a foundation of Torah education. During thls stage of life, one who attempts to tackle the world without first laying that foundation is destined to failure. That failure is represented by hail, which during the plagues in Egypt consisted of fire inside of ice. As fire represents Torah, this imagery suggests a small vestige of learning trapped and obscured by outside elements.

The spirit's next mission discovered a different scenario, that one who planted in the second quarter would find his crops afflicted with shidafon. This represents the stage of life where one who has built his spiritual foundation must now arrange for support for himself and his family. If he pushes this off, into the second quarter, he will again be uncsuccessful.

Now the individual, having received the message, is complete, and the husband and wife are no longer fighting. The wife then argues with the mother of materialistic spirit, again representing negative inclinations, and tells her that she will show her that her daughter is buried in reeds. The message is thus that chasing after material desires exclusively leads to the next generation being trapped within temporal concerns.

The next year, this man again revisits the cemetery experience. This year is representative of the later stages of life, when people are more contemplative and reflective upon mortality. This time, the spirits are talking again, and the invitation to explore Torah is suggested anew. This time, though, the materialistic spirit says, leave me alone, our argument has already been settled in your favor; in old age, it is clear to all (“is already known among the living”) that obsession with materialism is ultimately empty and a life without spiritual meaning will be regretted.


Wow. That is a nice interpretation to a bizzare story. Thanks for sharing!
Back to top
  Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 11, 12, 13 ... 31, 32, 33  Next  Last >> Recent Topics

Page 12 of 33 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Judaism

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Discussion on the Daf - Shabbat
by Aylat
158 Wed, Jun 03 2020, 5:45 am View last post
Shabbos Table Discussion Book
by mc
4 Sun, May 03 2020, 1:14 pm View last post
by mc
Discussion on Nach Yomi
by amother
48 Fri, May 01 2020, 12:24 pm View last post
Do people pay R MM Weiss if they go to his Daf Yomi Shiur?
by amother
11 Sun, Feb 02 2020, 11:30 pm View last post
Anyone going to start daf yomi?
by amother
191 Wed, Jan 29 2020, 8:37 pm View last post

Jump to: