Discussion on the Daf - Brachot

malki2

Fri, Jan 24 2020, 12:00 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Regarding the story of Rav Adda bar Ahava tearing off the garment from the non-Jewish woman, clearly that was not the Kiddush Hashem [that the Gemara talks about to explain why the previous generation was worthy of miracles], because in fact, he was obliged to pay the woman a huge amount of money in damages. 400 zuzim is double the amount of money given in the ketubah!

Rabbanit Farber explained that the Kiddush Hashem was the fact that he agreed to pay this huge sum in order to rectify the situation. He accepted the judgment against him, and went on to speak very respectfully to the woman (when he asked her her name, etc.).

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you and Rabbanit Farber on that one. It’s not like he offered to pay this amount on his own. The Beit Din decided that this was the amount that he owed her. And he was complaining about having to pay it. And paying what Beit Din ruled is definitely some outstanding kind of kiddush HaShem. Neither is speaking respectfully to a woman that you unnecessarily embarrassed.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Jan 24 2020, 12:16 pm

malki2 wrote:

Not sure what you’re talking about, but there’s no agenda here. We’re all “talking in learning” and trying to get to the truth. That’s one of the main purposes of learning Torah BTW. Now Mesoret HaShas is right beside the text of the Gemara, and is as much as part of the Daf as anything else. And there’s a reason why it references Gemaras in other Masechtot. It’s not intellectually honest to just ignore a particular reference. Unless you are just truly learning the Daf as Bekiut. Which is no issue, but then we have to be careful not to mention other references as well such as Rishonim that are not “on the Daf”.

Not intellectually honest? You're accusing me of intellectual dishonesty? You're wrong. As I've said previously, I know what it is to set yourself on a long and difficult road toward a goal in learning and to succeed. I not only have a PhD, I've mentored and advised quite a few students who now have PhDs. The reason the attrition rate in PhD programs is so high (and doubtless is even higher among those who start Daf Yomi!) is that people don't make a plan to accomplish a certain amount each day or week and then stick to their plan. The pace in Daf Yomi is brutal, if you go through every daf and try to understand every word and concept on each daf. Sure it's nice to go off on tangents, but that makes it much less likely that you'll accomplish the Daf each day. Especially if you have a demanding, full-time job, and take care of your family and household.

In this particular case (נשים במאי זכיין), I'm not even tempted to start going off and looking at other sugyot where the concept comes up. I'm not tempted because I'm not כַעֲבָדִים הַמְשַׁמְּשִׁין אֶת הָרַב עַל מְנָת לְקַבֵּל פְּרָס. I'm learning Torah l'shmah. So whether or not I get as much s'char as a man, or how the s'char is calculated or for what does not keep me up at night. But even in situations where I am tempted, and they have come up repeatedly in the last 20 days, I am disciplined and I keep to the daf. This is not an exercise in dilettantism for me.

By the way, one of the beautiful blessings that my learning Daf Yomi has brought to my family is that there's an increased learning across the board. I've done the arranging shiurim and melamdim and car pools for extra sedarim and all that. But nothing works as well, it seems, as having a mom who talks about Gemara over supper and clearly is really enjoying it.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Jan 24 2020, 12:18 pm

malki2 wrote:

I'm not sure we're disagreeing here. I never said he offered to pay on his own. He accepted the judgment against him, which was huge, and did what he had to do, in a civil way. That's an amazing madregah.

amother

Mustard

Fri, Jan 24 2020, 1:45 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

The embarrassment is not just from being unclothed in public, horrific as that might be. If someone were to tear off my jacket, I'd be humiliated, even though I always wear a shirt that covers my elbows and collarbone underneath my jacket. Having anyone tear clothes off you is humiliating.

I think everyone agrees that she was humiliated - that’s why he compensated her so richly. The comment about having a garment underneath the one that was ripped off was in response to “He sounds like the progenitor of the Vaad ha Tznius, but it sounds less tznius to pull the garment off her.”

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Jan 24 2020, 2:22 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Got it. Thanks!

By the way, regarding your color, “cut the mustard” and “keen as mustard” are high compliments. I agree that the color itself is not a thing of beauty. Let’s hope that you don’t wind up as puce or raw umber or tobacco in the next thread. Maybe we can ask Yael for nice colors (cerise, lemon, navy) for amothers in our next thread. I wonder if it’s possible to do that?

imorethanamother

Fri, Jan 24 2020, 5:06 pm

malki2 wrote:

Obviously he was acting leshem Shomayim and with real kanaus, which is something that has to be instinctive, meaning that he was instinctively fired up with righteous indignation and that’s why he did what he did. It’s sort of like with Pinchas, that the Halacha is that if you have to ask what to do, then you don’t kill them. Pinchas acted instinctively because he was so fired up by the chillul HaShem that was taking place.

So Pinchas always mystified me, especially because later instances of vigilantism and other kanaus examples were met by censorship by Hashem. So which was it - did he like someone being a Kanai or not?

And then I heard a shiur by Rabbi Forman on Aleph Beta that discusses the event, and what made it different than, say, Eliyahu doing the same thing. And the issue with Pinchas is that the mayseh with Zimri and Kusby sparked a plague that was killing the klal. And Pinchas was moved not just by the chillul Hashem, but also by a paternal feeling that he needed to protect klal yisroel. So he killed Zimri and Kusby, and even displayed them, to:
1) Stop them in their tracks. They were mired in their sin, and that act shook them awake, so to speak.

2) Stop the plague. In this way he protected Am Yisroel. This is what Hashem approved of.

Moshe, as well, "argued" with Hashem after the eigel and prevented the destruction of Am Yisroel. Was he also not fired up for Hashem? Was he also not righteously angered? Of course - but a leader thinks of his klal.

I'm also trying Nach Yomi, for balance, and in case this Daf Yomi doesn't work out past Brachos. And it's so wonderful seeing Yehoshua call Achan "bni" while he's rebuking him for being the cause of losing the war on Ai, as well as the deaths of 36 men.

malki2 wrote:

What I did find difficult with this Gemara was as follows: I’ve seen this Gemara before, and I’m always really touched by the point that is brought out in the first half of the Gemara, that it’s not quantity or even quality of learning that matters to Hashem, but it’s the level of mesirut nefesh. So I always found it a bit anti-climactic to have the story with the girl as the one story that stands out about the mesirut nefesh of the earlier generations. I would have chosen something else if I was the one writing the Gemara (thank G-d I’m not!) I mean, is this the best example of mesirut nefesh that we can find?

I know! And this also sparked a conversation with my teenage son, who was listening to the shiur with me. He wasn't thrilled with this example, but he also lives in modern times. I told him that the point of the Gemara is that nowadays we do what feels easier. And that people really used to sacrifice for Torah. The Lubavitcher Rebbe says (according to his biography by Telushkin) that he wasn't impressed with someone who lives amongst all yiddin and keeps the Torah. Go out to the wilderness, do shlichus to find more Jews amongst klal yisroel who have been lost, and let's see if you can still keep the Torah. (I'm sorry I'm paraphrasing). And it's true! What mesiras nefesh do we really have in our lives? I know plenty off the top of my head that I can do, and yet sometimes I'm too tired to go back downstairs and bentch when I forgot to do so.

imorethanamother

Fri, Jan 24 2020, 5:24 pm

malki2 wrote:

I’ve never felt sad. First of all, as Ayalat said, it’s exempted, not excluded. Second, women have a different tafkid than men. We nurture and raise neshamot. We’re the Akeres Habayis of a Jewish home which is compared to the Bais Hamikdash. And we get to do whatever mitzvos we feel like doing. Appreciate your tafkid. Be FEMININE, not FEMINIST.

I don't want to derail this thread, and I certainly don't want to offend you, because I think you're wonderful and brilliant, but I just hate it when people shoot down women like this. Do you think any one of us would be in a thread called "discussion on the daf" if not for feminism? No. You know how to read and write because of feminism. Until relatively recently, no one thought it was a good idea for women to be learned at all, including our sages.

What is "my tafkid"? Do you know what it is? Should Yael have stayed feminine and in her tent instead of going out to cut off Sisra's head? What is feminine? No one knows anyone's tafkid.

I feel sad when I'm left out of mitzvos. I feel sad when I'm in a succah on succos, but they invited too many people so only the men get to be in there and women don't. As I've gotten older, I get to go to shul more, and how incredibly beautiful is it to see the men walk around doing hoshanos with their lulav and esrogim in shul. I'm sad I don't get to. Am I supposed to be thrilled because instead, I cut onions and cook in a kitchen, alone, for an army of people? No. And I can go on and on. Pesach seems particularly unfair, but it is what it is and I grapple with it.

I'm allowed my sadness, you aren't able to take it away from me. Or anyone else.

Aylat

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 4:07 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

according to the opinion that saying shema is only a rabbinical
obligation, one does not have to repeat it, as they hold there is no
obligation mide'oraysa at all. However, birchas hamozon which is a
Torah obligation for men, just as men must repeat it when in doubt,
women must do so as well.
With this, says the Tzlach, we may deflect the words of the Magen
Avraham 17 concerning what the Mechaber wrote there that if one ate
and was uncertain whether he said birchas hamozon, he must repeat
it, as it is an obligation from the Torah. He writes that this is only
when he ate till he was satisfied, as then his obligation is from the
Torah. The Tzlach points out that from the Rambam 18 and the Tur,
who wrote generally that "when one is uncertain if he said birchas
hamozon, he must repeat it," this implies that there is no difference
whether he ate to his satisfaction or not. If he ate to his satisfaction
the Torah obligates his to bensch, so, when the Chachomim instituted
that he must bensch even after eating a kezayis, they made it like the
Torah's obligation, I.e., there is no difference between eating a kazayis
or to one's satisfaction. Thus, in both cases if he is uncertain whether
he said it, he must repeat it. 
Afterwards the Tzlach expresses doubt about proclaiming a new
halachah, but in conclusion he reiterates this halachah, and says that
women must repeat birchas hamozon when they are in doubt.
However, the Pri Megadim 19 and Chiddushei Rabi Akiva Eiger
there clearly hold that if women are only obligated rabbinically, in
case of doubt they do not need to repeat it, and they wrote that in
practice if a woman is in doubt whether she bensched or not, since
it is uncertain whether women are obligated with birchas hamozon
mide'oraysa or only miderabonon, she does not need to repeat it. Her
law is unlike that of men, who must repeat it, since in her case she
has a sfek sfeka (double doubt) as far as her obligation from the
Torah. Firstly, the uncertainty if women are obligated from the
Torah, and secondly, if she bensched or not. And as far as her
obligation miderabonon, she has single doubt, and does not need to
repeat it.
The Teshuvos Binyan Shlomo 20 also writes that it is a sfek sfeka
and she is exempt, and writes, even though the Pri Chodosh 21 says
that when the Gemara has a reservation of about a certain issue, it
does not qualify to be considered a doubt in the way we have been
saying, and cannot be part of a sfek sfeka, the Pri Megadim 22 wrote,
unlike the Pri Chodosh, that it can be part of sfek sfeka.
The Biur Halachah 23 concludes about this, that although the view
of the Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, Rosh, Baal Hamaor and Riaz is
uncertain whether women are obligated with birchas hamozon
mide'oraysa, because of the unanswered inquiry of the Gemara,
nevertheless, the opinion of many of the leading Rishonim is that they
are certainly obligated from the Torah, and so, If one bases himself
on the Poskim who require a woman to repeat bensching in case of
doubt, one will certainly not lose out, since according to several
Rishonim she is certainly obligated from the Torah.

Thank you for the halachic application! Where is this from?
"One will certainly not lose out" - aren't we worried about ברכה לבטלה?

Aylat

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 4:12 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Not hearing this so much, sorry. Paying a court-mandated fine isn't a kiddush Hashem, it's the level of a law-abiding citizen. I'm not reading the conversation as especially respectful - he asked her name and made a pun, not apologised.

Aylat

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 4:49 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

You're absolutely right - daf yomi is bekiut not iyun. Breadth not depth. It's great to throw out thoughts and questions as we go along, but at this pace there's no chance of answering them; one of the drawbacks of daf yomi. Instead we get the big picture, the flow, an overview - of everything. And that's its strength.

I'm sure that each of us here is doing this differently. Not just Artscroll vs Vilna edition, or which shiur we listen to, but also what we consider to be 'learning the daf'. JITM, you "try to understand every word and concept on each daf" - wow, you are way ahead of me. My aim is to just get an overview of the discussion on each page. Others may look up the pesukim cited (I would love to count the percentage of pesukim that are from Tehillim cited in Brachot, because it seems to be really high, at least in the first several dapim), cross-reference mesorat hashas, look up the psak halacha or read chassidish drashot (thank you naturalmom for the last two Wink

). All of these approaches are valid 'daf yomi'.

We all have different amounts of time and energy available for this. Something important to bear in mind - slow and steady wins the race. תפסת מרובה לא תפסת (I googled and apparently we will meet this phrase in several places including ר"ה and יומא...).

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

By the way, one of the beautiful blessings that my learning Daf Yomi has brought to my family is that there's an increased learning across the board. I've done the arranging shiurim and melamdim and car pools for extra sedarim and all that. But nothing works as well, it seems, as having a mom who talks about Gemara over supper and clearly is really enjoying it.

That's wonderful Smile

Aylat

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 5:10 pm

Brachot 22 ברכות כב
Just a few questions (I haven't finished the daf yet, beH will catch up tomorrow).

הזבים והמצורעים ובאין על נדות
What about those who had other forbidden relations? Does relations with all the עריות make one טמא or just with a נידה?

שונה הוא ברגיליות, ובלבד שלא יציע את המשנה
This section seems to imply that it's about effort, and that's also the way Rabbi Wise put it in his shiur. Why should effort have anything to do with whether it's permitted when טמא or not? Is Torah that you have to work harder at more holy? (Yes?)
שונה הוא בהלכות דרך ארץ
Is this more lenient or more strict (ie is הלכות דרך ארץ considered on a lower/easier level or higher/harder)?

רבי יהודה בן בתירא אומר: אין דברי תורה מקבלין טומאה
I just think there's something so beautiful about this.

מאן דתני 'שנאה' - משום בטול תורה ומשום בטול פריה ורביה, ומאן דתני 'לחשה' - שלא יהו תלמידי חכמים מצויים אצל נשותיהם כתרנגוליםFascinating the opposite viewpoints. Also the deterrent factor of inconvenience - has always been a thing.

מעשה באחד שתבע אשה לדבר עבירה, אמרה לו: ריקא! יש לך ארבעים סאה שאתה טובל בהן? מיד פירש.
And apparently this much of a thing! We humans are so inconsistent. "I'm violating the d'rabbanan of yichud [see Rashi] but I would never forgo the chumra I keep*, and that would just be too inconvenient, so."
*Though on second thoughts I'm not clear whether this guy held that it was a chumra or not. Maybe he held it was halacha.

Aylat

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 5:18 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Sorry. My error . This is the link:

https://zichru.com/

I signed up for their 12-day challenge and get reminder emails every day. I am also accessing it through the All Daf app (https://alldaf.org/).

It doesn’t add that much more time (an extra 5-10 min.), and I figure it’s worth it, if it will help me retain what I’m learning. I’m not sure yet what I think about it, though, so I was hoping to get some other opinions. (I don’t know anyone else doing it.)

I finally got round to having a look at this and downloaded the All Daf app as well. (Awesome looking other shiurim on there, many of them quite short just taking a specific angle eg halacha, I recommend the app.)

I listened to their method outline and have been listening to a few of their daily shiurim. Overall I quite like it, I would like to ensure I retain my learning and it would be great to have a rough idea of where things are in the masechta so I can look them up later. The memory trick works fairly well for me. How are you finding it?

amother

Mustard

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 7:47 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Thank you for validating my sadness. I agree with you completely, and it helps to feel that my pain is understood and shared. (I am not replying to those who don’t understand or expounding on this at length, because I don’t either want to derail this thread . . .)

amother

Mustard

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 8:07 pm

Aylat wrote:

I’ve been listening to a daily Shiur on the Daf for a couple of years now, but I was treating it as an overview of the Gemara, etc. This time, I am investing more effort to be “koneh the Daf,” so-to-speak.

I’ve been listening to the Daf Hachaim Review (on All Daf) after my regular Shiur. It’s a short 6-7 minute review of all the major points on the Daf. Then I’ve been doing the Zichru program. I try to review their Daf simanim (along with the associated topics) whenever I have a few free minutes (e.g. in the car, before falling asleep, waiting on line, etc.) I took their suggestion to play “Name that Daf” and had DD call out the topics and I named the correct Daf for each of them. As of now, I can remember the three major points they are focusing on for each Daf we’ve covered to date, and I am acing their quizzes, so I guess it is working. I’m still not sure how valuable it is, but DH thinks it is worthwhile, so I plan to continue and see how much I can actually remember of it. I guess at the end of Brachos, I will re-evaluate whether I want to continue.

(Btw- I’m also reviewing all the weeks’ blatt inside on Shabbos or on Motzoei Shabbos. I think the more effort I invest the more I’ll retain, and the more I’ll gain from it)

amother

Mustard

Sat, Jan 25 2020, 8:46 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Not intellectually honest? You're accusing me of intellectual dishonesty? You're wrong. As I've said previously, I know what it is to set yourself on a long and difficult road toward a goal in learning and to succeed. I not only have a PhD, I've mentored and advised quite a few students who now have PhDs. The reason the attrition rate in PhD programs is so high (and doubtless is even higher among those who start Daf Yomi!) is that people don't make a plan to accomplish a certain amount each day or week and then stick to their plan. The pace in Daf Yomi is brutal, if you go through every daf and try to understand every word and concept on each daf. Sure it's nice to go off on tangents, but that makes it much less likely that you'll accomplish the Daf each day. Especially if you have a demanding, full-time job, and take care of your family and household.

In this particular case (נשים במאי זכיין), I'm not even tempted to start going off and looking at other sugyot where the concept comes up. I'm not tempted because I'm not כַעֲבָדִים הַמְשַׁמְּשִׁין אֶת הָרַב עַל מְנָת לְקַבֵּל פְּרָס. I'm learning Torah l'shmah. So whether or not I get as much s'char as a man, or how the s'char is calculated or for what does not keep me up at night. But even in situations where I am tempted, and they have come up repeatedly in the last 20 days, I am disciplined and I keep to the daf. This is not an exercise in dilettantism for me.

By the way, one of the beautiful blessings that my learning Daf Yomi has brought to my family is that there's an increased learning across the board. I've done the arranging shiurim and melamdim and car pools for extra sedarim and all that. But nothing works as well, it seems, as having a mom who talks about Gemara over supper and clearly is really enjoying it.

I’ve given this some thought over Shabbos, and I agree with you that Daf Yomi is not learning b’iyun and it would be too difficult to keep up, if we go and check out each sugya in every other place it is mentioned. I do think, however, that when we encounter the same sugya in another place, it will be good to think about whether and/or how it aligns with what we have already learned.