Discussion on the Daf - Brachot

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malki2

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 10:43 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Even assuming the avot kept the whole Torah (I know it’s a midrash, but I don’t know that this is universally accepted, although it’s taught to all kids), why would Sarah have kept a takanah??

I think it’s Rashi on the passuk עקב אשר שמע אברהם בקולי says that Avraham kept even Eruv Tavshilin. Rabbi Tatz explains beautifully that the Torah was the blueprint for the world. A builder can look at the blueprint and see the building. A skilled architect could look at a building and construct a blueprint. The Avot did the latter. They looked at the world and constructed the entire Torah from it. Including the takkanot which were an outgrowth of the Torah.

imorethanamother

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 11:19 pm

malki2 wrote:

I think we’re actually confusing two different things. There is something called טומאת קרי which is mentioned in the Torah. That is a concept in Taharot, and applies also to a פולטת and also anyone else who touches the זרע. Then there is טבילת עזרא. I think that one only applies to the men after they emit זרע, and is a restriction on learning Torah, specifically. It’s not a taharot issue related to coming in contact with the זרע. I think.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here that we didn't already say? A Baal Keri is for either men or women who come into contact with זרע. The sages argue over what's needed, and for what type of person. Whether it's a sick person who didn't intend or a well person who did, and what they need to become tahor. And it can be either a tevilah with 40 sa'ah, or you can pour it over yourself with 9 kavim, again, depending on the manner in which the tumah occurred.

And basically, not only did this dissuade men from being intimate with their wives, but it also ensures that women were always tamai.

naturalmom5

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 11:50 pm

Aylat wrote:

Onwards! Brachot 23a ברכות כג

מעשה בתלמיד אחד שהניח תפיליו בחורין הסמוכים לרשות הרבים ובאת זונה אחת ונטלתן, ובאת לבית המדרש ואמרה: ראו מה נתן לי פלוני בשכרי! כיון ששמע אותו תלמיד כך - עלה לראש הגג ונפל ומת; באותה שעה התקינו שיהא אוחזן בבגדו ובידו ונכנס.'
Lots of questions on this!
1) Why did she do that? Did she have a grudge against this specific man or was she trying to embarrass Torah scholars in general?
2) He had no way of proving his innocence?
3) That was the takeaway from this (surely) one-off incident - don't put your tefillin next to רשות הרבים?! One the other hand though, we definitely see that often legislation and change only happens after extreme incidents, though it may have been building for a while.

בראשונה היו מניחין תפילין בחורין הסמוכין לבית הכסא ובאין עכברים ונוטלין אותן
How was there enough time for a mouse/rat to steal tefillin while someone went to the bathroom? And he was right there - a deterrent for the rodent. Why would a rodent even steal tefillin? Maybe for the leather to chew on. Also, why would there be less rodents on the bathroom side than the street side? People must have been entering the bathroom all the time.

התקינו שיהו מניחין אותן בחלונות הסמוכות לרשות הרבים - ובאין עוברי דרכים ונוטלין אותן!
Once again, people are weird and contradictory. Steal to do a mitzva? Unless there were stealing to sell them, that makes more sense. Though the mishna in succa has to make it explicit that you can't do the mitzva of lulav with a stolen one, because apparently someone would steal a lulav in order to do a mitzva.

ואוחזן בימינו כנגד לבו
He's holding the של ראש in his right hand and wearing the של יד on his left. How does he wipe himself?

אמר רבי יעקב בר אחא אמר רבי זירא: לא שנו אלא שיש שהות ביום ללבשן, אבל אין שהות ביום ללבשן - עושה להן כמין כיס טפח ומניחן.
אמר רבה בר בר חנה אמר רבי יוחנן: ביום גוללן כמין ספר ומניחן בידו כנגד לבו, ובלילה - עושה להן כמין כיס טפח ומניחן
What's the difference between these two opinions?

כי הוה נקיט ספרא דאגדתא - הוה יהיב לן
If there's permission to bring in tefillin, wouldn't there be permission to bring in a ספר קודש?[u]

Since tefillin is the antenna that receives kedusha from the higher worlds, it has to be watched very carefully .
Even the talmid chocham who needs to attend to physical needs of this world, a legitimate reason to remove the tefilin, they still need to be guarded carefully , not disgarded or placed on the shelf facing the street
Otherwise, the zonah or machshovas zaros ( lascivious thoughts) will come along and commandeer the tefillin, and then announce to the world of asiya ( our world) , behold look what I was given by this talmid chochom

This causes a tremendous yerida in him, he falls off the roof , his lofty madrega and falls to the ground, and loses the spiritual connection, which is like the maeved atzmo ldaas in the story

Hence , even though chazal generally dont make a takona based on a fluke occurence, here it is of grave consequence so we say , dont expose your thoughts the street , and dont let the achbarim near them

By day wrap them in your garment, keep them close
By night or Shabbos when the os of tefillin isnt needed, put them in a keli , a bag, and put a special hat or streiml or other head covering on in its place
When you sleep dont totally remove yourself from its energy

malki2

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:10 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

None of those scenarios look lema’aseh irl Sad

. I think that’s why she is just prohibited from trumah for the entire 3 days, because the assumption is that she may be poletes at any moment. . .

1. The Rambam on the Mishnah says clearly that she is tamei and requires regular only after she is polet. I would reconcile this with the Halacha re teruma that because it is possible it even inevitable that she will be polet, we don’t let her eat teruma. But for Shema it could be different. And the Mishna here does use the term Shepaltah, meaning that she’s not automatically assur to read Shema and daven for 3 days. It’s only when she was polet actually. And also see the Rambam in hilchot Teruma that does differentiate between different cases where she will not necessarily be Polet afterwards. Re davening, there’s no AYLOR here, because this Halacha no longer applies anyway.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:11 am

malki2 wrote:

Ok so just to let you guys know, I’ve decided to go “all in”. Thanks Mustard and Ayalat for the gentle encouragement, and morethanamother for the kind words. And Joy, I certainly wouldn’t want to be known as a dilettante! I don’t think I’ll manage 100 percent of each daf, but I’ll definitely do my best to keep up in an official capacity. I definitely will have less time to post on Imamother!

I was surprised to see a lot of replies to my comments. Some have been very thought-provoking, and I want to give them some proper thought and kovod myself before I reply back.

Shavua Tov everyone!

I am so glad you’re joining us!

Just to be clear: I wasn’t calling you a dilettante. It’s been clear to me for a while now that you either are or were a mechaneches. You’re no dilettante. We are lucky to have you learning with us.

But consider Daf Yomi from the perspective of someone who is not steeped in the world of chinuch every day, who needs to deal with the realities of a demanding job in another area entirely, in addition to all the other responsibilities that we have to our children and families. When I decided to take this on, I knew I’d have to make a game plan in order to have any chance of success. So I made my game plan, and while it may not be a game plan that suits or satisfies you, I believe it’s my best chance at success. I am the one at risk of becoming a dilettante. I know that from my dipping into studying Gemara at various times of my life, but never having been able to devote the time I wanted to it. My life hasn’t gotten easier, but I’ve learned more about tasking, organization, and self-management, and as imperfect as my learning is, I know it is as much as I can do now.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 6:54 am

Aylat wrote:

Not hearing this so much, sorry. Paying a court-mandated fine isn't a kiddush Hashem, it's the level of a law-abiding citizen. I'm not reading the conversation as especially respectful - he asked her name and made a pun, not apologised.

But what is the alternative? That you have to claim that the Kiddush Hashem was an action that the courts deemed to be wrong?

malki2

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:08 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

But what is the alternative? That you have to claim that the Kiddush Hashem was an action that the courts deemed to be wrong?

Yes! It wasn’t the Kiddush Hashem per se that the Gemara was praising. It was the Mesirut Nefesh for the sake of Kiddush Hashem. And on that, his heart was in the right place which is what matters. Now couldn’t the Gemara have chosen a story where he “got it right”? So I was just thinking that maybe there was no such story, because the Jewish girls actually dressed properly. So the only story the Gemara found was one where the perpetrator was actually a Kutit, and he ripped the dress off mistakenly.

chicco

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 8:59 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Even assuming the avot kept the whole Torah (I know it’s a midrash, but I don’t know that this is universally accepted, although it’s taught to all kids), why would Sarah have kept a takanah??

Bava Metzia 87a

כתיב (בראשית יח, ו) לושי ועשי עוגות וכתיב (בראשית יח, ח) ויקח חמאה וחלב ובן הבקר ואילו לחם לא אייתי לקמייהו
The Gemara continues its analysis of the verses. It is written: “Knead it, and make cakes” (Genesis 18:6), and two verses later it is written: “And he took curd, and milk, and the calf which he prepared” (Genesis 18:8). Abraham served these items to the guests, and yet he did not bring bread before them despite having instructed Sarah to prepare baked goods.

אמר אפרים מקשאה תלמידו של רבי מאיר משמיה דרבי מאיר אברהם אבינו אוכל חולין בטהרה היה ושרה אמנו אותו היום פירסה נדה
Efrayim Miksha’a, disciple of Rabbi Meir, says in the name of Rabbi Meir: Abraham, our forefather, would eat non-sacred food only when he was in a state of ritual purity, I.e., he treated his food as though it were consecrated to God. And Sarah, our foremother, menstruated that day, which rendered the baked goods ritually impure, preventing Abraham from handling them. Therefore, they could not serve bread to their guests.

naturalmom5

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 9:41 am

Bingo !!!!

Brochos 24..

Seah b isha erva

Shok b isha erva

Kol b isha erva...

All the seminary girls know this sugya better than other sugya in Shas.... Very Happy

I am still very perplexed.. Why is hair only erva on a married lady...Everything else we dont make a distinction here we do..

All the Rishonim just seem to take it for granted that single girls hair is not erva without quoting a source or explaining why...

chicco

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 9:54 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

Bingo !!!!

Brochos 24..

Seah b isha erva

Shok b isha erva

Kol b isha erva...

All the seminary girls know this sugya better than other sugya in Shas.... Very Happy

I think the distinction between a married woman's hair and a single women's hair being erva, is that erva is that which is not supposed to be exposed/is covered in public. Because there is no reason for a single woman to cover her hair, her hair is not erva. Whereas a married woman's hair becomes erva when it has a new status of having to be covered (which I know is because it is erva...chicken/egg situation).

The question then becomes why it is necessary for it to be covered/why it gains the erva status. This I believe stems from the idea that it must be shown that she is an ayshes ish. Covering one's hair was a simon to the outside world that a woman was married. Which explains why a woman would not have to cover her hair in her own home where it is obvious that she is married.

goodmorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 10:33 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

Bingo !!!!

Brochos 24..

Seah b isha erva

Shok b isha erva

Kol b isha erva...

All the seminary girls know this sugya better than other sugya in Shas.... Very Happy

Not all Rishonim; the Rambam (seemingly) paskened that it applies even to single girls. (Issurei Biah 21:17):
לֹא יְהַלְּכוּ בְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל פְּרוּעֵי רֹאשׁ בַּשּׁוּק. אַחַת פְּנוּיָה וְאַחַת אֵשֶׁת אִישׁ
Jewish women should not walk in the market with their hair uncovered. [This applies to] single women and married women.

The Shulchan Aruch quotes the words of the Rambam, Even HaEzer 21:2: לא תלכנה בנות ישראל פרועות ראש בשוק אחת פנויה ואחת אשת איש:

Acharonim debate exactly what was meant by פְּנוּיָה (and for that matter, what was meant by פְּרוּעֵי רֹאשׁ Smile

goodmorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 10:36 am

(But it is possible that the source for not applying the halacha of covering hair to unmarried girls comes from the mishna in Kesubos (2:1) which says that one of the signs of a besulah is that she goes out with her hair uncovered:

הָאִשָּׁה שֶׁנִּתְאַרְמְלָה אוֹ שֶׁנִּתְגָּרְשָׁה, הִיא אוֹמֶרֶת בְּתוּלָה נְשָׂאתַנִי, וְהוּא אוֹמֵר, לֹא כִי אֶלָּא אַלְמָנָה נְשָׂאתִיךְ, אִם יֵשׁ עֵדִים שֶׁיָּצָאת בְּהִנּוּמָא וְרֹאשָׁהּ פָּרוּעַ, כְּתֻבָּתָהּ מָאתָיִם.

A woman became a widow or was divorced. She says, “I was a virgin when you married me” and he says, “Not so, rather you were a widow when I married you”, If there are witnesses that she went out with a hinuma, and with her head uncovered, her ketubah is two hundred [zuz.] )

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 4:02 pm

So let me tell you what bothers me most, right now, about all this discussion in the Gemara about bodily fluids. I am traveling for work. I am already behind on Daf Yomi because of all the preparations I had to do— technical, for work, and food prep for me to take along and for my family at home. I have a long plane ride and then there will be crazily long days in big conference rooms and very little time in my hotel. So I figured I would catch up on Daf Yomi on the plane. But how can I have my Sefaria app open, with all the discussion about seminal emissions and other bodily functions? I can’t. I need to find the version without English translation for situations like these.

End vent.

goodmorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 4:07 pm

On the website, you can toggle between Hebrew, English and both. Does the app not allow that?

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 4:28 pm

goodmorning wrote:

On the website, you can toggle between Hebrew, English and both. Does the app not allow that?

Yes, yes, that works! Thanks!

naturalmom5

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:35 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

http://e-daf.com/

malki2

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 8:33 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Don’t worry, I was just ribbing you before. And thanks. And I definitely don’t think of you as a dilettante either. 😉

And good luck with the Daf on your trip. That takes real dedication!

imorethanamother

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 9:49 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Bingo !!!!

Brochos 24..

Seah b isha erva

Shok b isha erva

Kol b isha erva...

All the seminary girls know this sugya better than other sugya in Shas.... Very Happy

What’s interesting is that some say the shok means the lower part of the leg, below the knee.

Aylat

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 3:03 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

Bingo !!!!

Brochos 24..

Seah b isha erva

Shok b isha erva

Kol b isha erva...

All the seminary girls know this sugya better than other sugya in Shas.... Very Happy

Adding to the question.
Rashi on שוק says באשת איש. Not on hair.

malki2

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 5:09 am

Aylat wrote:

Adding to the question.
Rashi on שוק says באשת איש. Not on hair.

Good point. So the footnote on Rashi references the Bach’s commentary on the Tur. There he says that the Gemara here is specifically noting areas that we wouldn’t necessarily assume to be erva by אשת איש. Such as hair and voice. And he says that the Gemara specifically mentions שוק because we might have thought that the calf would not be an issue at all, bc in those days people walked in the dirt and the calf got dirty as well, and we might have thought that the שוק of a married woman would not arouse הרהור at all, so the Gemara here comes to tell us that שוק is assur by a married woman like voice and hair.

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