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Nominating someone who can't win the general election
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 15 2020, 7:54 pm
chanatron1000 wrote:
Do you spend time with all of them, or only some?


I spend a lot of time on christian political forums. Do I talk to everyone, no. But your perception is wrong and polls will back me up.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:29 am
small bean wrote:
That has nothing to do with discrimination against gay.

You are completley uninformed on the basis of the republican agenda. You again are lacking context and understanding on issues.

Speak to any gay republican and I know many and there is no discrimination.

There is no rule that a gay anything can not run for office. If there was a good candidiate that was gay every republican would support him.


I'm not responding only to this post of yours, but to several of your posts:

At this point in my life, I would estimate that about half of my family and close friends and aquaintances are pretty right-wing Republicans, and the other half are pretty liberal Democrats - and a good mix of Christians and Jews – so I know from personal experience on both sides:

The vast majority of the Republicans that I know ABSOLUTELY discriminate against homosexuals - and any LGBTQA people, for that matter. They would NEVER vote for a gay presidential candidate - they would rather not vote or vote an acceptable third party. The Republicans I know are often openly bigoted - on social media and in public. And, to be clear, I know a lot of different kinds of Republicans - Christians and Jews alike, and even the ones that are genuinely good people are far too often genuinely bigoted, and see no problem making derogatory comments at a community dinner. I have seen the discrimination first hand as my family was split apart over homosexuality. Of course, there are awesome right wing Republicans (like my Grandmother) who believe that homosexuality is a sin, but still love and welcome gay people like any other people. I still don't think that she would support a gay candidate, though. Maybe I'll ask her during our next weekly call!

The Democrats I know don't discriminate - or at least they try not to. I don't personally know any Democrats who would have a problem with a gay candidate, although I am sure there are some.

I'm not speaking to the "Republican Agenda", just giving my personal knowledge and experience.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 11:22 am
small bean wrote:
There is a difference between equality and discrimination.

Im not going to address the details of your post because you seem to misunderstand a lot of nuance.

I have no issue with a store in 2020 not serving jews. Jews will take their business elsewhwere and the loser is the guy that chose not to serve jews. I dont think anyone should be forced to do free trade with anyone they dont want. Now you can throw eggshells at me.


I'm sorry that you don't think that I'm smart enough to grasp your "nuance." However, refusing to serve someone because of religion, race, or z3xual orientation is the very definition of discrimination. What you are doing is trying to redefine words to meet your agenda.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:28 pm
lavenderchimes wrote:
The vast majority of the Republicans that I know ABSOLUTELY discriminate against homosexuals - and any LGBTQA people, for that matter. They would NEVER vote for a gay presidential candidate - they would rather not vote or vote an acceptable third party. The Republicans I know are often openly bigoted - on social media and in public. And, to be clear, I know a lot of different kinds of Republicans - Christians and Jews alike, and even the ones that are genuinely good people are far too often genuinely bigoted, and see no problem making derogatory comments at a community dinner. I have seen the discrimination first hand as my family was split apart over homosexuality. Of course, there are awesome right wing Republicans (like my Grandmother) who believe that homosexuality is a sin, but still love and welcome gay people like any other people. I still don't think that she would support a gay candidate, though. Maybe I'll ask her during our next weekly call!

The Democrats I know don't discriminate - or at least they try not to. I don't personally know any Democrats who would have a problem with a gay candidate, although I am sure there are some.

I'm not speaking to the "Republican Agenda", just giving my personal knowledge and experience.

With respect, perhaps your experiences are unique or at least uncommon. Certainly they are the opposite of my experiences in conservative circles, where the "coming out as conservative is harder than coming out as gay" trope is so common a theme of personal essays and social media posts that it's become boring.

So many of the best-known and most popular conservative activists and pundits are gay that there is a joke on Twitter about any emerging conservative voice who mentions his wife: "Wow! I would never have guessed he was straight."

Ambassador Ric Grenell is immensely popular in conservative circles and is frequently mentioned as a future presidential candidate.

At Trump rallies, Bikers for Trump regularly volunteer to keep Gays for Trump from being physically assaulted -- by anti-Trump LGBT protesters.

The vast majority of conservatives -- including those who disapprove of homosexuality on religious or cultural grounds -- do not carry their philosophical objections over into personal interactions or even their judgment of individuals' qualifications for various roles. As one conservative gay activist described it, "The worst bigotry I've ever experienced from a conservative was a man in the Bible Belt who shook my hand and said, 'I don't agree with your lifestyle, but I'll pray for you.'"
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:37 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I'm sorry that you don't think that I'm smart enough to grasp your "nuance." However, refusing to serve someone because of religion, race, or z3xual orientation is the very definition of discrimination. What you are doing is trying to redefine words to meet your agenda.

No one is refusing to serve LGBT individuals. The only area of contention is regarding the ability of artisans to refuse commissions for events they disagree with from a religious or philosophical view.

The only reason this is controversial is because the Obama administration emboldened state officials to discount the validity of religious objections -- specifically those of Evangelical Christians. No one was outraged, for example, when Marc Jacobs announced that he would refuse any requests to design special event clothing for First Lady Melania Trump. Nor has anyone attempted to force Muslim bakeries to make wedding cakes for same-s-x marriages.

If you want a kosher bakery to be able to decline decorating a cake with swastikas, you have to live with a Christian-owned bakery declining to create a cake for a same-s-x wedding.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:40 pm
Getting back to the OP, there’s really no difference between any of the Dems. Not one of them will come close to defeating Trump in the general election anyway. Not Joe, not Pete, not Elizabeth, and not Bernie. Someone please record my words and play them back here after the election.
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chanatron1000




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:42 pm
small bean wrote:
I spend a lot of time on christian political forums. Do I talk to everyone, no. But your perception is wrong and polls will back me up.

I've seen the opposite. I think it depends on your own point of view, or perhaps they are different forums.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:42 pm
Don't understand how Frum Women can support Homosexual Rights.

Open Homosexuals are at war with Hashem, including Xtian ones.

One cannot be proud of what is clearly a Sin and Abomination unless one is
Rebelling against G-d.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 1:02 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Don't understand how Frum Women can support Homosexual Rights.

Open Homosexuals are at war with Hashem, including Xtian ones.

One cannot be proud of what is clearly a Sin and Abomination unless one is
Rebelling against G-d.

I think it depends on what you mean by "homosexual rights."

Given that we are in galus and live in large countries with people of various backgrounds, ethnicities, values, and religions, we have to acknowledge that not everyone holds the same beliefs we do. Therefore, if we want to be treated civilly, respectfully, and lawfully by people who believe we are sinners, we must extend the same courtesy to others.

While most gays wanted some kind of marriage or civil partnership, a silent majority feel that the demand for "rights" has long since jumped the shark. Indeed, there is a great deal of cynicism within various gay communities toward LGBT activists and their sudden focus on transgender issues.

It is also a mistake to assume that every LGBT individual supports the "we're here and we're queer" mentality of LGBT activists and Big Gay media. The majority are relatively appalled.

Likewise, if you get your information from activists or Big Gay media, as quite a few Imamothers seem to, you would think that most LGBT people are "proud." On the contrary, while many have accepted their orientation, virtually all of those who are not in long-term relationships and even some who are, readily acknowledge that they wish they weren't gay.

One well-known gay conservative activist said recently in a private setting, "I used to pray every night before I went to bed that I would wake up and not be gay. Even though I'm in a relationship now, I still sometimes do, because I know this isn't what G-d wants for me."

People are messy and complex, and the challenge of compassion is figuring out where to draw the line between acceptance and validation.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 1:13 pm
Fox wrote:
I
While most gays wanted some kind of marriage or civil partnership, a silent majority feel that the demand for "rights" has long since jumped the shark. Indeed, there is a great deal of cynicism within various gay communities toward LGBT activists and their sudden focus on transgender issues.

It is also a mistake to assume that every LGBT individual supports the "we're here and we're queer" mentality of LGBT activists and Big Gay media. The majority are relatively appalled.

Likewise, if you get your information from activists or Big Gay media, as quite a few Imamothers seem to, you would think that most LGBT people are "proud." On the contrary, while many have accepted their orientation, virtually all of those who are not in long-term relationships and even some who are, readily acknowledge that they wish they weren't gay.


Of course not every gay person feels the same.

But since you're discussing majority, please post reliable polls showing that the majority of gay people think that the request for equality is a bad thing.

Please provide a basis for saying that most gays wish they weren't gay. (I'm ignoring "not in a relationship" here). In a way that separates it from discrimination.

I'll state the obvious. My gay friends would disagree vehemently, and I think they're in the majority. But I'm not looking for anecdotes. I'm looking for facts.
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 1:47 pm
I have a lot of relatives in Chicago and surrounding areas-registered Democrats, mainly because they feel it's a waste of energy to register Republican in the big city.
They have told me that they think Buttegieg is unelectable in the General Election, not because he's gay, but because he's a small town mayor, in a dinky little college village, in a dinky state that half of Americans can't even point to on a map. They've never heard of him before a year ago, and they don't think he has the resources, popularity, and experience to become president.
So the question is do you vote for Biden, who can possibly BECOME president, but not to BE president. Or someone else who probably won't be able to BECOME president, but if he did miraculously, then he'd be able to BE president.

(I'm a republican. I personally hate Trump. Didn't vote in 2016, can't handle the thought of voting for him in 2020. Agree with some/many policies, but think he created too much hate and divide.
I was desperate for a moderate Democrat to run. But they've all dropped out.)
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 2:00 pm
keym wrote:
I have a lot of relatives in Chicago and surrounding areas-registered Democrats, mainly because they feel it's a waste of energy to register Republican in the big city.
They have told me that they think Buttegieg is unelectable in the General Election, not because he's gay, but because he's a small town mayor, in a dinky little college village, in a dinky state that half of Americans can't even point to on a map. They've never heard of him before a year ago, and they don't think he has the resources, popularity, and experience to become president.
So the question is do you vote for Biden, who can possibly BECOME president, but not to BE president. Or someone else who probably won't be able to BECOME president, but if he did miraculously, then he'd be able to BE president.

(I'm a republican. I personally hate Trump. Didn't vote in 2016, can't handle the thought of voting for him in 2020. Agree with some/many policies, but think he created too much hate and divide.
I was desperate for a moderate Democrat to run. But they've all dropped out.)


The Hatred and Divide is coming from the Democrats. Trump was not the first Republican President to be called Hitler. Bush was called Hitler. Romney was called Hitler. Anyone who didn't vote for Obama is obviously a Racist, Anyone who didn't vote for Hillary is a Mysogynist, etc.
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 2:06 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
The Hatred and Divide is coming from the Democrats. Trump was not the first Republican President to be called Hitler. Bush was called Hitler. Romney was called Hitler. Anyone who didn't vote for Obama is obviously a Racist, Anyone who didn't vote for Hillary is a Mysogynist, etc.


I'm not getting into any debates with you.
There's plenty wrong with the"unity" of the country. Both sides can take the blame.
But I've felt this way since 2014- when Trump threw his hat in the ring.
The nastiness and vitriol from Trump. During the nominations, against his contenders, against enemies, against perceived enemies, against Democrats. I have never seen anything like that. It's the personal attacks and not the issues.

But you're right. I would not vote for a Democrat who calls names as a way to make a point, either.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 2:29 pm
keym wrote:
I'm not getting into any debates with you.
There's plenty wrong with the"unity" of the country. Both sides can take the blame.
But I've felt this way since 2014- when Trump threw his hat in the ring.
The nastiness and vitriol from Trump. During the nominations, against his contenders, against enemies, against perceived enemies, against Democrats. I have never seen anything like that. It's the personal attacks and not the issues.

But you're right. I would not vote for a Democrat who calls names as a way to make a point, either.


What's different about Trump is that he FIGHTS BACK - and yes that does include name-calling. But Bush would not fight back and the Democrats and Fake News drove Bush's approval numbers into the 20s. So don't think taking the "high road" helped.
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malki2




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 2:33 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
What's different about Trump is that he FIGHTS BACK - and yes that does include name-calling. But Bush would not fight back and the Democrats and Fake News drove Bush's approval numbers into the 20s. So don't think taking the "high road" helped.


And Bush the got us into Iraq for no reason and also destroyed our economy. I’ll take Trump the vulgarian over Bush or Obama the gentlemen.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 3:25 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Of course not every gay person feels the same.

But since you're discussing majority, please post reliable polls showing that the majority of gay people think that the request for equality is a bad thing.

No one thinks the request for equality is a bad thing. What are you talking about?

The issue is not whether equality is a bad thing; it's defining "equality"?

For example, a great many people -- I don't know if it's a majority or not -- are against "equality" that will result in the erasure of women's sports as a function of trans female athletes competing against biological females.

SixOfWands wrote:
Please provide a basis for saying that most gays wish they weren't gay. (I'm ignoring "not in a relationship" here). In a way that separates it from discrimination.

I'll state the obvious. My gay friends would disagree vehemently, and I think they're in the majority. But I'm not looking for anecdotes. I'm looking for facts.

I'm not sure why you're trying to make LGBT people seem as stereotyped as possible, but I'll go down this road if you wish.

However, it won't end where you think it will!

The entire logic of the LGBT push for equality is based on the premise that homosexuality is unarguably a trait, not a choice. What is the basis for that? The proof has always been the question, "Would anyone choose to be gay if they had the choice?" Acknowledging that virtually no one would choose a trait that would likely make life harder is a cornerstone of LGBT activism.

If you want to claim that being gay comes with so few disadvantages that no one would for a second find it problematic to be gay, you're making quite a claim!

Here's the problem with trying to separate happiness and satisfaction in life from discrimination: remove discrimination and the picture is even bleaker. The more gay-centric a man's life is, the more prone he is to depression and other mental health issues. HuffPo

If I had to venture a guess, I would say that most gay people have a variety of emotions about their s-xual orientation over the course of their lives. There are probably times when they hate it and times when they embrace it -- so it's quite possible that the range of opinions adds up to more than 100 percent. But I'm uncertain how any of this relates to the concept of giving people equal rights but not placing them in protected status groups.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 3:37 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
Personally, as a mostly conservative person, Mayor Pete's gayness wouldn't prevent me from voting for him (for comparison's sake, Trump's Trumpiness prevented me from voting for him in 2016 but I'm leaning towards voting for him in 2020). His overly prepared words do scare me; he comes across as very fake. Sanders is almost less scary to me because at least he is honest.

In 2020, I don't think anyone can be considered unelectable.


So an honest socialist is fine with you?
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 3:40 pm
lavenderchimes wrote:
I'm not responding only to this post of yours, but to several of your posts:

At this point in my life, I would estimate that about half of my family and close friends and aquaintances are pretty right-wing Republicans, and the other half are pretty liberal Democrats - and a good mix of Christians and Jews – so I know from personal experience on both sides:

The vast majority of the Republicans that I know ABSOLUTELY discriminate against homosexuals - and any LGBTQA people, for that matter. They would NEVER vote for a gay presidential candidate - they would rather not vote or vote an acceptable third party. The Republicans I know are often openly bigoted - on social media and in public. And, to be clear, I know a lot of different kinds of Republicans - Christians and Jews alike, and even the ones that are genuinely good people are far too often genuinely bigoted, and see no problem making derogatory comments at a community dinner. I have seen the discrimination first hand as my family was split apart over homosexuality. Of course, there are awesome right wing Republicans (like my Grandmother) who believe that homosexuality is a sin, but still love and welcome gay people like any other people. I still don't think that she would support a gay candidate, though. Maybe I'll ask her during our next weekly call!

The Democrats I know don't discriminate - or at least they try not to. I don't personally know any Democrats who would have a problem with a gay candidate, although I am sure there are some.

I'm not speaking to the "Republican Agenda", just giving my personal knowledge and experience.


You should get out more, I’d venture to say your circle of family/acquaintances, etc. is certainly not indicative of what is going on with the majority of Americans, by far.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 3:44 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Of course not every gay person feels the same.

But since you're discussing majority, please post reliable polls showing that the majority of gay people think that the request for equality is a bad thing.

Please provide a basis for saying that most gays wish they weren't gay. (I'm ignoring "not in a relationship" here). In a way that separates it from discrimination.

I'll state the obvious. My gay friends would disagree vehemently, and I think they're in the majority. .


“I think” are the key words in your last statement. It’s been noted many times that most are not happy with their situation, the stigma, being “different,” etc. and wish they weren’t.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 16 2020, 4:30 pm
Cheiny wrote:
“I think” are the key words in your last statement. It’s been noted many times that most are not happy with their situation, the stigma, being “different,” etc. and wish they weren’t.


"Noted" is no different from "I think." Its your own conclusion.

If you have information indicating that most gay people think that gay rights have gone too far, please share. Data, not anecdotes.
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