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amother
Natural


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 6:25 am
malki2 wrote:
Where is it “clear”?

Halacha makes it very clear, that's also why a woman has to wait 3 months after divorce before remarrying.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 6:27 am
sorry
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 6:42 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Halacha makes it very clear, that's also why a woman has to wait 3 months after divorce before remarrying.


It’s true that a woman has to wait 3 months, but that has nothing to do with the reason for not being able to marry 2 men.

I can quote you the source of what I told you. I am asking you to quote the source of what you told me. I don’t think you can.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 6:51 am
malki2 wrote:
It’s true that a woman has to wait 3 months, but that has nothing to do with the reason for not being able to marry 2 men.

I can quote you the source of what I told you. I am asking you to quote the source of what you told me. I don’t think you can.

So let's see your source, first of all.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 7:18 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
So let's see your source, first of all.


Shulchan Aruch E”E 31:8. It is not possible for a woman to marry 2 men. Meaning not physically possible. Not because of purposes of determining patrilineal descent.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 7:21 am
malki2 wrote:
Shulchan Aruch E”E 31:8. It is not possible for a woman to marry 2 men. Meaning not physically possible. Not because of purposes of determining patrilineal descent.

The s'if itself does not say because she is his kinyan.
I will look up the nosei keilim later.
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malki2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 7:46 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
The s'if itself does not say because she is his kinyan.
I will look up the nosei keilim later.


No it doesn’t. But if it was because of a takana, it wouldn’t be impossible for the marriage to happen. The reason of kinyan is what I always understood as being the mechanics behind the Halacha.
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 8:42 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Heter meah rabbanim is almost never given, it's usually reserved for very rare cases of a wife who is in a coma or should be/ is in a mental asylum. A man whose wife is "just" abusive and refuses to accept a get has zero options for remarrying and starting a new life, no rabbi who knows his past will agree to perform the marriage and he cannot divorce. He could always skive off and pretend to never have been married in the first place, but if it comes to that, so can a woman.


I know 2 very normal, lovely women, who were badly screwed and their horrible exes got heter 100 rabbonim.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 8:46 am
Why doesn't a woman have any obligation in the kesuba? Seems like a bad deal for the man.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:02 am
ectomorph wrote:
Why doesn't a woman have any obligation in the kesuba? Seems like a bad deal for the man.


What obligation could the woman have? She owns nothing. Her husband owns the rights to all her possessions, and anything she earns, finds, acquires (in most other ways), etc. belongs to her husband. The husband is taking care of her in exchange for acquiring all she owns or earns. Sounds to me like a much better deal for the man.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:08 am
ectomorph wrote:
Why doesn't a woman have any obligation in the kesuba? Seems like a bad deal for the man.


Also, the woman has no obligation in the kesuvah, because in Halacha the marriage is not an equal partnership. It is a sole proprietorship- owned by the husband. The wife is one of the assets acquired by the marriage. (That is why he makes a Kinyan on his wife - not the other way around.) As the sole proprietor- All the power, risks, rewards, profits, losses, and responsibilities, belong solely to him.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:49 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Two or three off the top of my head.

Women, I know a few abusive women who claimed their husbands refused to give a get. And my friend's cousin refused to accept a get unless she was given everything he had, financially ruining him (she had more money coming into the marriage than he did as well).

Yes it takes a long time but that goes for both genders. It's not unrealistic to say "if you're not divorced within five months that doesn't make you an aguna." Divorce is almost always messy and proceedings can take a couple years. Even for non-Jews, even in civil court. That doesn't make someone an aguna. Just like you would probably not say a man has been refused a get because his wife stipulated that she'll accept it only if he completely cuts ties with his children and he refused (I know a few cases like that, it's more common than you might think).


I'm pretty sure the language the Torah uses regarding giving a gett is v'nasan b"yadah- he must give it to her hands.

1. A Gett given when a man is under duress is void.
2. I'm not completely sure of this but a man might be able to give his wife a gett while she is sleeping. He can also trick her into accepting the gett perhaps by mailing it to her. Once she picks up the envelope or certainly opens it and holds it, he's satisfied v'nasan b'yadah, as he has placed it in her hands. So I don't think women cam refuse a gett.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:52 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
I'm pretty sure the language the Torah uses regarding giving a gett is v'nasan b"yadah- he must give it to her hands.

1. A Gett given when a man is under duress is void.
2. I'm not completely sure of this but a man might be able to give his wife a gett while she is sleeping. He can also trick her into accepting the gett perhaps by mailing it to her. Once she picks up the envelope or certainly opens it and holds it, he's satisfied v'nasan b'yadah, as he has placed it in her hands. So I don't think women cam refuse a gett.

Wow, it's amazing that all those men chained to recalcitrant and abusive wives (and the batei din they divorce in) didn't know what you know. Why not start offering courses for men on how to unchain themselves from these horrible women? I'm sure you could make a fortune off it, even if you charge just $300 a course.
I guess these chained men don't really exist, and certainly if they do it must be their own fault, that they didn't do any of the things you've suggested.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:55 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
I'm pretty sure the language the Torah uses regarding giving a gett is v'nasan b"yadah- he must give it to her hands.

1. A Gett given when a man is under duress is void.
2. I'm not completely sure of this but a man might be able to give his wife a gett while she is sleeping. He can also trick her into accepting the gett perhaps by mailing it to her. Once she picks up the envelope or certainly opens it and holds it, he's satisfied v'nasan b'yadah, as he has placed it in her hands. So I don't think women cam refuse a gett.


According to the Gemara, a woman cannot refuse a get, but it is one of the takanos of Rabbeinu Gershom (along with the one against polygamy) that a husband cannot divorce his wife against her will. Rabbeinu Greshom did a lot to even the playing field, and we all owe him a huge debt of gratitude.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:55 am
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
It's true that there are men tied to women who refuse to give a get, but there are MANY more women in that position. No comparison.

Have you ever heard of a woman refusing to give a get for ten or twenty years? Neither have I.

The batei din are also very aggressive in pressuring women to agree to anything, just to get a get. At least I know many such cases in Israel. As if the woman should be so grateful to be given a get, that they should agree to any demands.

Also, don't forget that men have biology on their side. Their biological clock isn't ticking, and they are not as desperate in terms of time.

If a man isn't frum, he isnt in any hurry to give a get.
A secular woman is. Beit din will treat her very badly if she moves in with a new man, and her kids will be declared mamzerim.


Yes, I did.

But like some mentioned upthread, the husband has the option of heter meah rabbanin, which he exercised. From what I understand, the get for this woman is still waiting for her in bes din (she never picked it up).

I also know another person where the wife refuses to accept the get without getting x,y and z, with x meaning a certain amount of money.

Both genders can play the game, although it's true that in the Jewish court system the man has the advantage.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 9:59 am
Metukah wrote:
I know 2 very normal, lovely women, who were badly screwed and their horrible exes got heter 100 rabbonim.


Don't the men have to leave a get in bais din in order to get a heter meah rabbonim?

Also, how do you know for sure that their horrible exes really got the heter?

There was a famous story posted here and when I did a tiny bit of research, I found that the beis din he claimed he left the get in and gave him the heter vehemently denied that they ever did it and that he gave the get to them.

It could be these two men were making it up the same way.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:02 am
amother [ Mauve ] wrote:
What obligation could the woman have? She owns nothing. Her husband owns the rights to all her possessions, and anything she earns, finds, acquires (in most other ways), etc. belongs to her husband. The husband is taking care of her in exchange for acquiring all she owns or earns. Sounds to me like a much better deal for the man.


From what I understand, everything she comes into the marriage with and anything she is gifted during the marriage belongs to her.

She gives up on the money she earns because her husband is obligated to support her. Nowadays, though, normal couples don't really have this discussion as society has changed.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:44 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Don't the men have to leave a get in bais din in order to get a heter meah rabbonim?

Also, how do you know for sure that their horrible exes really got the heter?

There was a famous story posted here and when I did a tiny bit of research, I found that the beis din he claimed he left the get in and gave him the heter vehemently denied that they ever did it and that he gave the get to them.

It could be these two men were making it up the same way.


The man has to deposit a get with the Bais Din, but there may be conditions that she finds impossible or unacceptable (e.g. monetary, custody, etc.) that she needs to fulfill in order to pick it up.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:49 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
From what I understand, everything she comes into the marriage with and anything she is gifted during the marriage belongs to her.

She gives up on the money she earns because her husband is obligated to support her. Nowadays, though, normal couples don't really have this discussion as society has changed.


Even if she owns something, she does not own it in the way we would define ownership. She has no rights to sell it, and all income earned by it belongs to the husband. So to all intents and purposes, it is not really under her control, as long as she remains in the marriage. (It would revert to being under her control upon divorce or death of the husband.)

It’s true that nowadays normal couples don’t usually work this way, but the Halacha hasn’t changed, so the man’s Halachic responsibilities remain (although nowadays, most women work and contribute to the household income, as well).
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:54 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Don't the men have to leave a get in bais din in order to get a heter meah rabbonim?

Also, how do you know for sure that their horrible exes really got the heter?

There was a famous story posted here and when I did a tiny bit of research, I found that the beis din he claimed he left the get in and gave him the heter vehemently denied that they ever did it and that he gave the get to them.

It could be these two men were making it up the same way.


Yup the men did leave the get in beis din, but there was a reason these women were withholding the get. In one of the cases, she lost her only chance to have a child, because of him and she wanted monetary compensation, which he refused to give. She was a friend of my mother's.

In the second case, he took the kids away from her in the most cruel way. She wanted, at the very least, unsupervised visits. He screwed her, incited the kids against her and got heter 100 rabbonim. I was personally involved in this case. The only comfort I have in this case, is that the True Judge will deal with him accordingly and I'm sure he'll be so far in hell, he'll never see even a glimpse of gan Eden.
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