Potching lightly on the hand (literal slap on the wrist)

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 10:48 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

How on earth is an age - appropriate time out or grounding considered cruel and unusual punishment?

I think it is.

If by time out you mean they have to go to their room, I did this all the time, but not as a punishment (Go to your room until you can come out and talk calmly) but a small child will not go voluntarily and I don't like that punishment.

My kids don't go anywhere so grounding isn't really a punishment for them, but someone here said she would ground for a month and she means it. I think that's cruel and unusual punishment.

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 10:53 pm

zaftigmom wrote:

Just to clarify, are you saying that a rare, light potch on the hand in a loving, healthy parent child relationship is damaging? We all agree that beating your children is abusive and awful but is the line really at all or nothing?

If you really want to know, I think there are parents that fool themselves about the "healthy loving relationship" they have with their children. They want to believe what isn't. "Rare, light potch" has a different description if you ask the child!
I don't believe all parents are this delusional but I know for sure it exists. Why take the chance. Why allow someone that fantasy excuse at the expense of a child.
It isn't worth it. And there are so many better ways. Just faze it out, what is the big deal not to hit your child. Why are people bending over backwards to justify their hitting of a child.
I have read too many trauma memories from now-adults. Just don't go there. There is 0 reason 0 justification for hitting a child or anyone. At least if you insist on hitting, be consistent and hit your neighbor and coworkers too. Because we dont know how to solve problems without hitting? Because our creativity only goes as far as a slap on the wrist? Fine, if you admit to that, I want to hear that you also slap friends, family, neighbors, etc., on the wrist when they do something you don't like.
(I don't mean you, zaftigmom. I'm referring to anyone who insists they must hit. Can't get through life without it.)

allthingsblue

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 10:53 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Grounding for a month sounds extreme unless the child did something outrageously physically dangerous. Grounding for a day (no friends allowed over either) sounds like a fair punishment once in a while.

Time out in the child's room I don't think is cruel and unusual. If we did a poll, or if you asked your kids which is worse: a potch or a 5 minute time out, I bet most people would say a potch is worse.

mommy201

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 10:59 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Today's experts say ALL punishment is abuse. Yelling (verbal abuse)
Time Out (abandonment), Take away dessert (will cause eating disorder),
No special Mommy Time (with-holding affection as punishment),
scolding (no blaming/no shaming)

and on and on it goes.

Today's generation is the most misbehaved, disrespectful, narcissist, and UNHAPPY
children - not all, but much more than past generations.

Ignore the experts.

The things you listed are all forms of abuse but each to different extents. Probably some yelling here and there and some rare time outs... will probably not have any long term damages but most people that yell do it more often then they should or punish, time out more often and not rarely. It’s just how it is.
So to me rather use a different effective method that works but does not leave to chance any damage or any sense of even the tiniest abuse.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:00 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

It's extreme no matter what. I don't care what the reason was. I would imagine the child would be resentful for the rest of her life. I would be.

I never grounded because it really doesn't work for younger kids (not immediate enough) and I'm not really into punishing older kids.

Personally I think a time out (putting a child in a locked room) is much worse than a potch, and I think my child felt the same way. But we can agree to disagree.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:01 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Is the rare, light potch as harmless as when my husband tells me something silly and I swat him on the shoulder playfully?
If yes, I guess it's harmless but how is it even effective?

Does your husband ground you or put you in time out for misbehavior? (I sincerely hope not). As you can see, the comparison is silly.

I once saw this written in a medical context "children are not little adults". And they're not.

allthingsblue

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:04 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think you misunderstood my question. I am trying to figure out how this light potch actually feels. How light is it? Like a love-pat? If so, how is it effective?

My husband communicates with me if he's upset, and that's what I do with my kids- I communicate. If my husband were to hit me ch"v, more severe consequences would be in order. If my kids hit their siblings, sometimes a timeout is in order.

#BestBubby

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:09 pm

mommy201 wrote:

So you agree that ALL punishment is abuse, right?

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm so curious - what are the better ways? At this point my curiosity is mainly academic, but seriously, I've tried them all.

Locking in a room - I tried it very briefly and stopped because I decided that that became my definition for cruel and unusual punishment. And besides it didn't work. (I should really apologize to my oldest though, I tried it out on him).

Withholding treats - what treats?

Grounding - again, cruel and unusual punishment and doesn't work for younger kids because it's too far ahead. I don't like punishing older kids in any case - when they're old enough to be reasoned with I reason.

Yelling - not much better than hitting IMO.

I am a big believer in using positive rather than negative (a spoonful of honey...) but even so, to never, never punish? Is that really realistic or even desirable?

I don't do any of the above. Completely over the top punishments.
I try my utmost not to punish. It is so negative. My younger children, when confronted with negativity, get into a cyclical negative pattern. They have taught me how to parent effectively, discipline positively.
The more positive I give them, the more they respond positively. Yes they also like to take advantage and I will sometimes look away or renegotiate, deciding to be more positive with them if I feel they need it, and sometimes I will be firm.
A punishment might be: sorry no video time tonight, you acted hyper last time you watched. Or after repeated chutzpa: bedtime is 10 min early for a week. Or if a child is cranky and wild nonstop: let's have an early bath and pajamas so you can go to sleep on time tonight.
There is no need to bring a hammer down on the child. I do not take away treats. I may say, you can have this when I hear you are speaking nicely. That sets the right behavior in motion immediately.
Either way, I am the one setting the rules and confirming the limits.
There is no one size fits all solution. What works for one kid very well might not work for another. It all depends on personality.
I strongly recommend the nurtured heart program which teaches you to surround your child with positivity and discipline them effectively in a positive manner. I personally don't need to use the entire system, although many people do use it, it is enough for me to know how utilize positive statements to channel my kids' energy and actions.

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:37 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

This is another example of FAKE scare-mongering - It states that studies say that children who were spanked more frequently are more aggressive and have lower IQ. It implies that spanking CAUSE your child more aggressive and lower IQ.

No.

A child who is naturally more aggressive and/or lower IQ will be spanked more than children who are naturally less aggressive and/or more intelligent.

The spanking did not CAUSE the aggression or lower iq.

I don't know why you feel the need to twist the words of the AAP report.

I think they did a good job defining corporal punishment and differentiating between that and abuse. They explained clearly what the issues are and how it affects the child. I know it is true for the people I know in real life.

FAKE doesn't mean "I don't like what I'm reading."

Laiya

Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:49 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

There are certainly effective alternatives to potching. And they don't include anything on this list.

With two caveats: Is time-out included in grounding? I would put a young child into a corner for time-out for 3-5 minutes, depending, while I'm there in the room.

As for yelling, there are different types of yelling. Yelling in anger is wrong. But using a raised voice to convey the seriousness of the rule, ex. We don't hit! , if used with good eye contact, can be very effective ime.

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Jan 22 2020, 12:01 am

One method that has worked beautifully for my most challenging child is to sit down next to him when he's busy in a room alone and say: "mommy and tatty really want x to happen, how do you think you can help?...We're relying on you." He says ok and blushes a bit, and I say: "I dont want to go into detail and embarrass you but im glad to see you know what I mean. Thank you."
And that very annoying behavior goes extinct like magic.
This is from a child who is automatically defiant if I would say that to him with people around.

Laiya

Wed, Jan 22 2020, 12:01 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't think the studies or discussions on the topic of potching adequately took into account the difference between this and other, more severe forms of corporal punishment. Do the studies about spanking provide any data about giving one slap, not in a sensitive area, and not hard at all, to the extent that it is only a punishment because of the context?

I think the problem with any type of potching is that, once you decide that it's ok, it becomes very easy to misuse. To hit as a way of winning a power struggle or taking out your anger or frustration.

I would speculate that very few parents who believe in hitting as a valid discipline method, do it 100% dispassionately and in the manner you describe.

#BestBubby

Wed, Jan 22 2020, 12:40 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Yes, this study did not call biting, strangling and burning "corporal punishment" like
other fake articles do.

BUT this study MISLEADS that spanking CAUSES aggression and lower iq, when all
it really said is that kids who are aggressive and/or lower iq get spanked more.

Well, Duh!

Those with good reading comprehension knows I did not say that the study is fake because I don't like what I'm reading as you falsely stated.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Jan 22 2020, 1:42 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Very few even bother to differentiate.
BTW some of those that do see a difference between spanking by the mother and spanking by the father. And others that bother to differentiate have found no real negative outcomes among children who were spanked.
I can't quote you the studies but in his free time my husband reads through studies on all sorts of interesting topics and this is one that he spent a lot of time reading up on (there are lots, very diverse). I could probably ask him to spend some more hours finding me everything he read so I could link it here but yeah, I don't really fancy asking him to waste hours on the net.
Anon because if I wrote this under my screen name, it would out me.

chanchy123

Wed, Jan 22 2020, 3:04 am

I have seen a mom in the playground gently telling her five year old that his toddler sister doesn't like what he's doing to her. The older kid was beating up the toddler, the mom didn't even ask him to stop. She did nothing because she believes in "non-violent" patenting. In my books that's abuse or at the very least neglect. So she's not firm with her older kid but her toddler is being beat up and the older kids understands that it's completely acceptable behavior. So the mom pointed out his sister is being hurt, but it probably isn't a big deal because mom didn't even say I should stop. That doesn't build empathy that builds sadisim. I have seen the same mom allow her kids to harass and disturbe other children and herself with either no response or very gentle talk trying to build empathy.

There is a huge difference between being firm and enforcing rules and abuse. And like shmutzagraphy - a reasonable person knows it when they see it.
Whether it is raising your voice, corporal punishment, loss of privelages, etc. Not all parenting methods work for everyone or are suitable for evenyone. A light slap on the wrist is not abuse.