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Is the Pursuit of Pleasure Encouraged by Torah?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 29 2005, 2:07 pm
they are synonymous

it gets passed from spiritual world to spiritual world until the huge drop from the lowest spiritual world to our physical world

maybe elaborating on the analogy will make it more clear -

the genius professor who conveys only part of what he knows to his doctorate student, who in turn conveys on part of what he knows to the graduate student, who ... to the undergrad, who ... to the high school student, who ... to the elementary school student ...
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Anny




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 29 2005, 2:26 pm
Quote:
they are synonymous

I do not see how.

In your example the original knowledge is passed down, and some knowledge is lost due to inability of understanding by the receiving party.

If you claim that the knowledge is processed and passed down as understood by the teacher, than we have a spirituality that is not diminished by barriers but that is distorted by other beings, no matter how spiritual they are.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 29 2005, 2:31 pm
its not being distorted at all actually. the knowledge that the original professor has is passed on to his student who understands it but not as fully as his teacher. then he teaches it to his student who understands it also but not as fully as his teacher. in the end, only a drop of the knowledge remains but it is not distorted.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 03 2005, 3:42 pm
a chasid by the name of Gershon Mendel Avtzon met an Israeli who didn’t look at all religious but who said (when asked) that he put on tefillin

he said he had been in the yeshiva in Kfar Chabad but wanted to leave, and he had to speak to R’ Shlomo Chaim Kesselman the mashpia first.

R’ Shlomo Chaim told him he has to learn chapter 29 of Tanya by heart (the chapter about the yetzer hara and how sometimes you have to tell it how despicable, loathsome etc. it is).

The boy went off and dropped religious observance except for tefillin. When he was ready to leave for America, he decided he would leave his tefillin behind, but his father came to the airport with them and he saw he couldn’t leave without them.

Although he did all the forbidden things, he said that he couldn’t enjoy them because of the Tanya in his head saying, with a niggun - you despicable, loathsome ...
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 12 2006, 4:12 pm
I was recently thinking, while exercising, how sure I can say I'm exercising in order to be healthy to serve Hashem, and quote the pasuk about guarding your health, but am I really doing it for that reason?

I don't think so. I think I exercise for myself! Confused

ditto for eating healthy, getting enough sleep ...
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imale




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 16 2006, 5:12 am
I think we are not on that level yet, to refrain from allowed permissable pleasures. Do you think Hashem doesn't know what to make permissable and what not?
One of the great mashpiim of Lubavitch was once seen sitting by the table at a wedding, eating ice cream. When some of the chassidim approached him questioningly as to how he can eat ice cream,such a gashmius pleasure , the Mashpia simply replied "OH , THIS IS ICE CREAM??"
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SMG




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 16 2006, 6:06 am
Motek, "mitoch shelo lishma, bah lishma." I think sometimes that as humans it is harder to do something lesheim shamayim if we wouldn't even do it for ourselves. That is part of our growth process. If you look in Mesilas Yesharim it talks a lot about elevating ourselves to be like angels. If Hashem wanted us to be angels, we would have been. I think it just means we need to keep working in an upwardly mobile, positive direction. Do it for yourself, but keep in mind at the same time that we do good things for ourselves because we are Tzelem Elokim.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2006, 12:22 pm
imale wrote:
I think we are not on that level yet, to refrain from allowed permissable pleasures. Do you think Hashem doesn't know what to make permissable and what not?


I am quite surprised to hear that from a shlucha! What do you think iskafia is about? Confused
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ezmush




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2006, 1:36 pm
I would like to add a few points:
1) I don't think that in debates regarding hashkafa we can talk about errors. There have always been different views (and perhaps there always will be. at least till the mashiach comes...) and each individual has the right to follow the 'face' of the torah that he feels suits him.
2) In regard to the discussion - I don't think pursuing pleasures just for the sake of physical enjoyment is recommended as a good way of life by anyone - the question is what your intentions are. If you run around searching for the best food available out of greed - thats better than eating non kosher but certainly not good. If you eat because you're hungry - thats one level. If you eat to build your body up to worship G-d - thats a higher level.etc. Only G-d knows what our real intentions are, and I'm sure he takes them into consideration.
3)One of the main problems with chumros, as I have learnt. is that we are talking about a ladder of spiritual levels. Trying to jump up and turn into a saint overnight just doesn't work. Skipping rungs on the ladder can actually be dangerous. Sometimes its much easier to take on ourselves chumros than carefully do every mitzva as it should be done - we get to feel such zaddikim...and it can turn in to a social issue too as said in a frum city : "hear about the latest chumra...?"
4)Kedusha is the goal that we should aspire to achieve, but slowly. A Rav I heard says - 'first life, then kedusha'. A young couple can ruin their married life before it has begun by trying to live according to all the chumros before they have learnt to know and love each other naturally and just make each other happy.(According to all the halachot, of course) As a madrichat kalot I understand that this is quite a common problem in couples that the husband learnt in yeshiva and believes that he has to be ultra holy.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2006, 2:11 pm
ezmush wrote:
1) I don't think that in debates regarding hashkafa we can talk about errors.


I will disagree. There have been hashkafos held by good people, learned people, that have been wrong.

Quote:
each individual has the right to follow the 'face' of the torah that he feels suits him.


that's as long as the view is actually a Torah view

Quote:
If you run around searching for the best food available out of greed - thats better than eating non kosher but certainly not good. If you eat because you're hungry - thats one level. If you eat to build your body up to worship G-d - thats a higher level.etc. Only G-d knows what our real intentions are, and I'm sure he takes them into consideration.


true

Quote:
One of the main problems with chumros


if you read through the thread you will see that this discussion is NOT about chumros but our obligation

"being holy" is a mitzva d'oraisa

but not wanting to repeat it all, please read the rest of the thread
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ezmush




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2006, 2:23 am
Sorry, but only after I sent my post did I notice that I missed 7 pages... Confused Well, now I've read them all and I see that FY expresses my opinion just as well as I do...
.
I think that the matter of chumrot is certainly closely related to this subject - though perhaps not identical. What is a chumra? Abstaining from things the Torah allows us to do. I know rabbanim who are all for chumrot, and others that are dead against - each with his own reasoning.
But as to what I wrote before - who can say who is right and who is wrong? Who decides nowadays what is the real 'daat torah'? Do we have prophets? Sanhedrin? On almost every subject you will find different halachic views and psika. And certainly differences in hashkafa. I have heard several talks on this subject which see things in a different light from the chasiddus and I believe it is legitamate as long as everyone tries to do the best he can.
[/quote]
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imale




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2006, 5:13 am
Motek wrote:
imale wrote:
I think we are not on that level yet, to refrain from allowed permissable pleasures. Do you think Hashem doesn't know what to make permissable and what not?


I am quite surprised to hear that from a shlucha! What do you think iskafia is about? Confused


Motek, I did not say there is no room for hiskafia, but I think this thread is pretty geared towards physical pleasure (with hubby) and as ezmush said in her post many times trying to be "extra holy" even if you don't have to be, can ruin a relationship, especially in the beginning of a marriage. Think about Baal Tshuva's ( I come in contact with so many cases like this) where they are coming from one extreme, and being scared to come close to the sins of their past, they do things almost mechanically forgetting that there is a human woman involved, with feelings,emotions and needs. They actually miss out on doing the mitzvah properly . Do you have to feel guilty if you experienced pleasure ??!!
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2006, 8:30 am
[quote="imale"]
Motek wrote:
imale wrote:
I think we are not on that level yet, to refrain from allowed permissable pleasures. Do you think Hashem doesn't know what to make permissable and what not?


I am quite surprised to hear that from a shlucha! What do you think iskafia is about? Confused


Quote:
Motek, I did not say there is no room for hiskafia


by saying we are not on that level, you ruled it out

Quote:
but I think this thread is pretty geared towards physical pleasure (with hubby)


physical pleasure, definitely (see thread title)

s-xual? not exclusively
the thread addresses the topic in general though examples were brought of eating etc.

Quote:
Do you have to feel guilty if you experienced pleasure ??!!


What did you think when you recently learned (in Chitas) that anything not directed to Hashem descends to kelipa? That Tanya does not apply to us? That there is no need to feel guilty when experiencing physical pleasure because we're not on that level anyway? I sincerely want to know as I find the cognitive dissonance of Tanya and the Ha'Yom Yoms on this subject, particularly for students in school, to be intolerable.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2006, 9:33 am
or how about the fact that when you eat, sleep, etc. it strengthens your nefesh habehames. Confused
do we do things to strengthen our nefesh ha'elokis- ie. learning Torah, doing mitzvos, etc.- as often as we do things to strengthen our nefesh habehames?? Confused
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2006, 9:42 am
Quote:
What is a chumra? Abstaining from things the Torah allows us to do. I know rabbanim who are all for chumrot, and others that are dead against - each with his own reasoning.


No, that is not a chumra. A chumra is where you have researched and delved into a particular machlokes deeply and have decided that the machmir opinion is correct. (as heard from rabbi berkowitz)
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2006, 9:47 am
Deleting post, since it was moderated and no longer makes sense.

Last edited by 1stimer on Thu, Jan 19 2006, 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2006, 9:56 am
I don't want this thread to digress to another discussion of the Chasidic movement. There's a thread on the Chassidic Woman that you can read if you're interested.

just a brief answer since you quoted an earlier post - as I wrote: "once they have learned the deeper dimension of Torah (pnimiyus ha'Torah)" - there's no going back
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2006, 7:36 pm
RG wrote:
or how about the fact that when you eat, sleep, etc. it strengthens your nefesh habehames. Confused
do we do things to strengthen our nefesh ha'elokis- ie. learning Torah, doing mitzvos, etc.- as often as we do things to strengthen our nefesh habehames?? Confused


OTH, nefesh ha'elokis does not need to be stengthen, it's holy and G-dly as it's name - Elokis. It's nefesh habehames that needs to be tought Torah and mitzvois ( see, I learned something too Mr. Green )

also, is not it when we say in shaharis " lesheim yihud kudsha..." it applies to all our deeds for that day to be leshaim shamaim?

"got chocolate?" (c) jk
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2006, 7:53 pm
I learned recently though that the Nefesh Ha'elokis needs assistance from above, because the nefesh habehames is constantly being strengthened.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 20 2006, 1:15 am
Quote:
I sincerely want to know as I find the cognitive dissonance of Tanya and the Ha'Yom Yoms on this subject, particularly for students in school, to be intolerable.


You're right, it doesn't seem to be emphasized practically. It seems like we are trying to get away with more and more rather than become holier. ( but what's cognitive dissonance? Confused )
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