How To Be A Perfect Parent - easy (Mishpacha)

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 8:57 am

allthingsblue wrote:

This is exactly the sort of thing that bothers me. I have heard of rabbis who recommended limited no contact after parents showed they could not respect boundaries. Toxic parents abound, sadly. I don't know who gave you the right to decide what is or is not toxic, but parents who consistently cause shalom Bayis issues between married couples, or who spent the child raising years raising their children with complete criticism orcontrol and destroying self esteem (and have not changed since), etc- these are toxic people indeed and if you didn't live there 24/7 you just don't know what transpired and how it affected the children.
There's a difference between imperfect parents vs toxic (aka emotionally or physically abusive) parents.

Why on earth would a normal person decide to cut off contact? Either the person is not normal (so parents should pray for them and hope/help them get the help they need) OR the situation got so bad that they felt they needed to remove themselves despite the many consequences (loneliness, embarrassment when being the only one making yom tov at home at such a young age, limited contact with single siblings, no grandparents to shower love on their children, no babysitting help, no one to share in nachas phone calls...) it's a painful choice. Don't minimize it.

Eta: most of these parents actually do love their children in their own way, but if they have a mental illness (borderline, narcissism, anxiety, you name it) that they refuse to treat, and therefore they treat their kids terribly, it's going to be impossible to deal with them in a healthy way.

I have almost never heard a Rabbi recommend to cut off. I have heard a rabbi change the parameters.

Therapists in the non jewish world regularly recommend cutting off "toxic people". They don't have a concept of kibbud av vaeim.

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 8:59 am

allthingsblue wrote:

Why do you think it would be abandoning the challenge? It's just exchanging it for a different set of circumstances.
I don't know your parents or how challenging they are but challenging parents present themselves in all sorts of ways. If a Rav or therapist feels this is necessary for someone, they shouldn't be blamed. Their parents are the ones who caused this and have the ability to change it through changing their behavior.

Rav is not equal to therapist.
And after being cut off there is almost no way for parent to change it.

It's a horrible selfishness of our generation.

amother

Azure

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 9:33 am

It's not selfish to protect yourself from people who endlessly criticize, don't respect boundaries, cause chaos, and project all their #$%^ on you.
If it happens to be parents- that's just too bad. Enough is enough. A parent doesn't own a child. A parent doesn't have a right to contact. Living in their house for 20 years in emotional or physical hell is plenty of kibud av vaim for a lifetime.
If a parent wants contact with an adult child, the parent has to mostly stop gossipping and badmouthing the child to everyone around. Secondly, listen to the adult child's needs and respect them. For example not expecting hours long phone calls every day. Asking in advance if it's a good time to visit. And so on.
If you cause chaos in my life, you won't be a part of it.
It is selfish to think you can do whatever you please and then complain when your presence is less than desirable.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 9:33 am

My father has had nothing to do with me or my family since I was 12. My memories of him are screaming, violence, and addiction. My mother overcompensated by being enmeshed, not allowing the kids to have opinions or personalities, and smothering us with "love," in a way that felt like hate. Codependance, parentification, no emotional regulation.

My therapist never said to cut off contact. But as I validate my own experience I realize the less I have to do with them now, the healthier and happier I am and the more I am able to focus on my own family.

My siblings have even less to do with them.
But if you'd meet my parents, you'd think they were the most normal, wonderful people. If you'd hear "their side," you'd hear how pained they are and even that their own children are the issue--that WE are the ones that are unhealthy, nebach, so it's our fault.

No one cuts off contact for ONE example on the list in the letter. Its consistent emotional neglect that causes the problem.

Everything is subjective. Its impossible for an external person to make judgement calls on anyone else's life.

thunderstorm

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 9:36 am

It’s so sad to read this thread. My father complains to the world that his kids don’t really have anything to do with him . We as his children have yearned for him to keep a connection with us. Instead he alienated and at some points completely abandoned us , but he still feels he’s the “nebach” in this situation. Believe me, I wish my father cared and wanted to have a relationship with his children. (We all have very limited contact but there were times we went with zero contact for over 3 years and that was not something I or my siblings chose. Yet in his sick brain , he believes that it’s our fault.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 9:37 am

I have an aunt who was unquestionably abusive. Even by the standards of the 1970s. As in hitting her kids on the head with a hair brush because she was in a bad mood. Today all her children would be OTD horrible people. But since they were born in the 1970s when you took responsibly for yourself and blaming or hating your parents was unacceptable in the frum world (and to a large extent the non frum world as well) most of her children are the most wonderful, successful and emotionally stable people you can find. The type of people who would be the most ideal spouses, bosses, neighbors etc.

Food for thought:

My SIL who is therapist herself made the following observation. She had been a successful therapist in a large frum community but then moved OOT. Her current client base is mostly non-Jewish. She says that her non-Jewish clients don't have anywhere near the resentment towards their parents that her frum clients had. Even though her non-Jewish clients frequently have much more legitimate complaints against their parents.

Why do you think it is that way?

amother

Green

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 9:50 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I have an aunt who was unquestionably abusive. Even by the standards of the 1970s. As in hitting her kids on the head with a hair brush because she was in a bad mood. Today all her children would be OTD horrible people. But since they were born in the 1970s when you took responsibly for yourself and blaming or hating your parents was unacceptable in the frum world (and to a large extent the non frum world as well) most of her children are the most wonderful, successful and emotionally stable people you can find. The type of people who would be the most ideal spouses, bosses, neighbors etc.

Food for thought:

My SIL who is therapist herself made the following observation. She had been a successful therapist in a large frum community but then moved OOT. Her current client base is mostly non-Jewish. She says that her non-Jewish clients don't have anywhere near the resentment for their parents that her frum clients had. Even though her non-Jewish clients frequently have much more legitimate complaints against their parents.

Why do you think it is that way?

I'm not surprised by her observations in the least. Frum families tend to be larger (more stress in raising and growing up, less privacy etc) and more enmeshed. Their kids are nowhere as independent or on their own as those in non Jewish families. Parents expect (and do) to be way more aware of the kid's comings and goings, and the kids rely on the parents much more. There are also certain expectations of conformity and behavior that can be stifling and controlling in worst case scenarios.

ETA: you say "most" of your cousins are lovely and well adjusted...So sounds like some at least did not cold well with their mom 's abuse. It's possible some were just less resilient or more fragile. Also don't forget in the 1970s there were more acceptable outlets for frum kids, don't underestimate the value of an escape valve to get some breathing space and cope with difficult stuff.

lilies

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 9:54 am

Some people can't fathom things only because they only learn on their own skin.
If it's something they haven't experienced, they cannot understand it.

This is for the healthy parents being cut off: I'm sure there are also some situations where the parents are healthy, and the kids are dealing with some situation that is causing them to act in unhealthy ways. Maybe a manipulative therapist or something. There are always exceptions to the rule. You might be the exception and it must be extremely painful to be in your position.

amother

Amethyst

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 9:59 am

I think it's mean to pressure the children who chose not to have contact with their parents while thinking what Hashem really wants them to do.

"I know your mom, she's an amazing person"

"There is nothing as important as kibud em.."

Or if you're sending their close ones like friends, teachers, neighbors, employers to give mussar to your child.

Know that you are being MEAN and you're contributing to the load of pain this victim is already carrying.

Even if you are SURE that the parent is the most amazing person you've ever seen. YOU CAN'T KNOW. Be careful. Stay out of it even if you're made to think that you're the only one that can "save" the matzav.

lilies

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 10:00 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Enmeshment and independence wouldn't be dependent on how large or small a family is.

I would guess there is something to the effect of how we are taught about parents, kibbud av v'em and the Torah mitzvos. Unhealthy parents will twist the torah to fit their needs. It is then reinforced in school. Nobody teaches kids about and how to deal with unhealthy parents. It's assumed the parents are healthy.

I'm curious if those non Jewish clients were raised xtian if they would not turn into atheists, instead of cutting off contact and such.
Another point, maybe if parents are so far off the deep end it is easier to see them as unhealthy and you don't expect much from them at all.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 10:10 am

ectomorph wrote:

Know lots of people who claim their parents are "toxic" and it's almost in style to cut off your parents nowadays. I've never seen it from a rabbi it seems like a therapist thing.

There are extremely rare situations where a parent is severely abusive and hates the child. 99% of these stories are not these types of situations. It's very sad.

These kids will have kids. Let's hope their kids don't cut them off for perceived slights. As has been modeled for them.

ecto, sometimes I get really frustrated by your stuck-in-the-yeshivish-box way of responding to posts.

Do you have access to any such situation IRL, where you are privy to all the details, that you are such an authority to say that it's in style to cut off your parents??

No one makes that decision lightly unless they themselves have severe issues, in which case, yes, their kids may very well cut them off one day!

I almost moved out of my house when I was 19 years old (I live in Brooklyn, where it would've been scandalous to board elsewhere). My therapist was encouraging it, but I was very torn. I spoke to a Rav, who ultimately told me not to do it at the time and in the specific circumstances. But if things had gotten worse from there, he would've told me to do so. I was not planning on cutting off from my parents, but my reasons for considering moving out were legitimate. My heart goes out to those who have had to make such painful decisions.

Are you on the severe parental abuse forum? I know you're not, ecto, because I am, and we know each other's screen names. You have NO IDEA what it means to go through this kind of pain. NONE.

Get off your high horse, please.

I'm sorry for the harsh tone of this post. I was very triggered.

thunderstorm

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 10:19 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I have an aunt who was unquestionably abusive. Even by the standards of the 1970s. As in hitting her kids on the head with a hair brush because she was in a bad mood. Today all her children would be OTD horrible people. But since they were born in the 1970s when you took responsibly for yourself and blaming or hating your parents was unacceptable in the frum world (and to a large extent the non frum world as well) most of her children are the most wonderful, successful and emotionally stable people you can find. The type of people who would be the most ideal spouses, bosses, neighbors etc.

Food for thought:

My SIL who is therapist herself made the following observation. She had been a successful therapist in a large frum community but then moved OOT. Her current client base is mostly non-Jewish. She says that her non-Jewish clients don't have anywhere near the resentment for their parents that her frum clients had. Even though her non-Jewish clients frequently have much more legitimate complaints against their parents.

Why do you think it is that way?

I think that there is a lot of control or abuse in the name of frumkeit and it sends mixed messages to kids in frum homes. Also, the added pressure of needing to fit into a certain mold and to conform (in the frum
Communities) and if you’re slightly different there is something “wrong” with you. The idea that you are obligated in Kibbud av vaim , even when the parent could be mistreating their children can really lead to very bad and confused feelings within a child. In addition, parents are beyond stressed , large families, less money for extras and outlets. Also, mental health issues have always been a stigma in the frum world so parents don’t get the necessary help for themselves or their kids , so that it doesn’t ruin possible “shidduchim”, or ruin the family “name” etc.
There are many reasons why children have more resentment in the frum world towards their parents. (But lets remember this observation by this therapist is just the observation by one person. This is not necessarily the fact all the way around)

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 10:26 am

I'm not on the abusive parents forum because I get triggered from stories of extreme abuse and neglect.
I was emotionally neglected, belittled, and just given a general sense that I don't matter- I was put into this world to serve my mother's needs and stoke her ego.
My marriage almost ended within the first 2 years because I had no idea how to ignore my mother or her insane demands.
My husband was being destroyed because he was not willing to twist himself into a pretzel to accommodate my mother and her whims.
She expected him to start loving fish because "all the people in my family like fish". And I was so scared of what would happen if he refused to eat it that I sat there at the shabbos table begging him to take a bite, taste it, you think you don't like it but you've never tasted hers....
That was the wake up call. At 20, I was trying to force my 24 year old husband to eat the gefilte fish that I knew he didn't like just to avoid making her upset.
I went to therapy and countless Rabbis, until I was told to cut off from her because my marriage and sanity was at stake.
I cut off from her for 4 years and rebuilt myself and my marriage. I received an average of 20 calls a month harassing me, but I ignored it.
After 4 years, I invited her to 6 months of therapy sessions to establish boundaries on healthy terms.
Now, I have an "erev shabbos phone call" relationship with her with strong boundaries.
But I have no doubt, she would or could write such an article like the original one.

amother

Cyan

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 10:41 am

My brother with a very obvious personality disorder managed to get a well-known rav in brooklyn to believe a bunch of Contorted lies and has gotten advice to break away and limit contact etc.

It saddens me because this is not helping my brother! He hates my parents but never actually gets along with anyone. So now instead of being guided on working on positive relationships , he is being enabled to live a false blame game .

Mama Bear

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 11:07 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

No one?

Someone who was abusive or super difficult while raising their child - no bc of BPD but bc of difficult life circumstances -- but then has a normal, cordial relationship with their married child, I dont think should be cut off.
There's something very wrong with doing that.
A parent who continues to be abusive to their married child, and their child cuts off -- should examine themselves and not continue excusing themselves like these letter writers.