How To Be A Perfect Parent - easy (Mishpacha)

amother

Olive

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 11:13 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

My brother with a very obvious personality disorder managed to get a well-known rav in brooklyn to believe a bunch of Contorted lies and has gotten advice to break away and limit contact etc.

It saddens me because this is not helping my brother! He hates my parents but never actually gets along with anyone. So now instead of being guided on working on positive relationships , he is being enabled to live a false blame game .

Same here with my SIL. Her 'therapist' (in quotes because she isn't even qualified) has diagnosed my MIL with depression and jealousy and whatnot without even meeting her. And her 'Rav' just goes along with her exaggerated sob story. My MIL might not be perfect, but she definitely doesn't qualify as an abusive person by any means. If anyone is abusive in the relationship, it's my SIL, constantly threatening to cut off contact, ignoring for weeks on end until she needs something from them, and making everyone walk on eggshells around her.

Mama Bear

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 11:15 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

It's possible the letter writer has narcissistic personality disorder. Thus she CAN'T fathom that it could be all her fault. She CAN'T ever understand the emotional damage she is causing her children. Also, she CAN'T have the empathy a normal parent has for such a child.

thats exactly what I thought.

If someone is cutting off their parents, their parents should stop excusing everything and examine where they're going wrong.

Ask yourself: Do you want to be RIGHT, or do you want a relationship with your child?

Even if you're 100% right, you're now the beggar, who can't be the chooser. either you have a relationship with your child and grandchildren on their terms, or you can continue being 100% right, in your head, but still no relationship.

So put your ego aside, and LISTEN to your kids. Don't defend yourself. Swallow the hurt and agree to the terms.

That's all.

allthingsblue

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 11:21 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

My point exactly. If we are dealing with difficult children here, people who refuse to be wrong, how to PSAs to the general public help anyone? The difficult (possible mentally ill) child is not going to listen. And the rest of the children who alienated their parents are normal people who are working to build healthy lives and relationships for themselves.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 2:11 pm

Cutting people off is definitely a "thing" these days. Instead of teaching boundaries, just take the easy way out. It makes it harder to know when you really should remove yourself from the relationship, and when you just need to step back and do some deeper therapy for yourself.

At one point, DD's old therapist had her cut me off. I was beyond devastated.

My sister's therapist had her cut off our mom for a few years.

My mom cut me off for 10 years, and refused to let me talk to my dad.

It's like we were all hacking at each other with machetes, trying to cut each other. We were all too enmeshed, and there were unresolved mental illnesses involved as well.

B'H, we all started talking again, and working through our stuff. I was able to reconcile with mom before she passed, and my sister did, too.

DD has a new therapist, and now when something comes up she calls me and says "I'm angry about the time this happened...", and most of the time it's because she's only remembering half of what actually happened. We work it out, and then she takes the new info back to her therapist.

Cutting someone off should always be a last resort. It's excruciating. There's a reason why putting someone in cherim or getting kares is considered such an awful punishment, worse than lashes.

(As for the parenting column, I think it's a bunch of contradictory baloney. If that is satire, they should have used the /sarcasm font.)

amother

Teal

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 2:47 pm

As with most things in life, it's complicated. I really don't think this sort of thing happens willy-nilly. At least one side, if not both, is severely dysfunctional when an estrangement happens. And if you're not involved, you really never know. I have a situation where a relative cut me off because she disagrees with my political views. I would love to reconcile with her, but no, I'm not going to change my views, or even pretend to change them in her presence just to reconcile. And she's gone around telling people that I cut her off, which is completely false. If you know her better than you know me, I could understand why you might think I'm the bad guy here. So honestly, yeah, if you are not really involved in the situation, you really can't know, and it's disingenuous to come up with opinions when you don't have even 10% of the facts.

That said, there is a definitely a trend these days of I owe nothing to no one and family is a social construct, DNA is not what makes family, and that's wrong too. I saw a post on reddit recently about a guy who wanted to know if it was OK to skip his brother's wedding because he's not so close with his brother and he didn't want to lose a whole weekend to attend the wedding, which was a four hour drive from this guy's home. And he was getting lots of pats on the back, you're an adult, you don't owe him anything just because you're related etc, and I was honestly floored at how casually this person was willing to skip his brother's wedding for no good reason and how quick people were to encourage such behavior (some posters asked for more info, and the op replied that it was not a financial hardship, and he didn't have a bad relationship with his brother, they just were "not close").

So I do get that there is a trend to devalue the importance of family relationships, and that's definitely concerning. But I think the onus is on the individuals actually involved in making the decision. Most of the time, I'm not involved enough to know who's being lazy and not wanting to put in the work to make it work, and who is genuinely not someone who can reasonably be worked with. So if someone tells me they had good reasons, I'm gonna take them at their word unless and until I have reason not to. But then again, I'm not in a position where anyone's really making decisions based on what I think. Obviously for those who are, there's a serious balance.

ora_43

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 3:21 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I have an aunt who was unquestionably abusive. Even by the standards of the 1970s. As in hitting her kids on the head with a hair brush because she was in a bad mood. Today all her children would be OTD horrible people. But since they were born in the 1970s when you took responsibly for yourself and blaming or hating your parents was unacceptable in the frum world (and to a large extent the non frum world as well) most of her children are the most wonderful, successful and emotionally stable people you can find. The type of people who would be the most ideal spouses, bosses, neighbors etc.

I have a relative who was unquestionably abusive by the standards of the 70s, and many of their kids didn't turn out OK. My theory is that back in the 70s, people didn't take responsibility for themselves, but today we do.

Or, you know, maybe we could just both say that there are about a million factors involved (the other parent's behavior, the presence/absence of other stable adults, individual psychology, etc) and that no one case proves much about an entire generation.

Quote:

Food for thought:

My SIL who is therapist herself made the following observation. She had been a successful therapist in a large frum community but then moved OOT. Her current client base is mostly non-Jewish. She says that her non-Jewish clients don't have anywhere near the resentment towards their parents that her frum clients had. Even though her non-Jewish clients frequently have much more legitimate complaints against their parents.

Why do you think it is that way?

Well that pretty much blows the "people resent their parents because they're encouraged to" thing out of the water, doesn't it? It's not like the idea of cutting off parents is a frum thing; if anything it's more socially acceptable outside the frum world.

And if I had to guess, that might explain what your SIL saw. Resentment comes from feeling like you're stuck with someone's bad behavior. It's more than just disliking the way someone treats you, it's disliking it but feeling forced to put up with it anyway.

Someone who feels free to stop calling their parent, or to move 3,000 miles away, might feel anger and pain over the bad treatment they got in the past, but they may be less likely to feel resentment.

Of course, the even more likely theory is that - like your cousins - your SILs clients aren't a representative sample of their entire generation.

ora_43

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 3:28 pm

ectomorph wrote:

These kids will have kids. Let's hope their kids don't cut them off for perceived slights. As has been modeled for them.

Both of my parents had a parent who they seriously limited contact with.

You know what I learned from that? That my parents were good people who I could trust to protect me from mean, hurtful people, even if they were family.

The older I get, the more grateful I am.

Of course cutting someone off completely should be reserved for serious issues. But when it's necessary, I wouldn't worry too much how the next generation will take it. If it's really necessary, odds are the kids will understand that as they get older.

amother

Azure

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 4:03 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

So if your brother with a very obvious personality disorder (how does that work btw, is it diagnosed or what) has issues and you believe the is in the wrong, getting people to believe lies about your parents etc etc...
Just imagine if that was your mother with a very obvious personality disorder going around getting people to believe lies about You.
Does that change anything or are mothers automatically exempt from any kind of criticism or responsibility for bad behavior?

amother

Denim

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 4:34 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I think we've misconstrued the point of this letter, because the author didn't do a great job of expressing her/his point. I reread it twice till I caught on, and this is what I understood her message was:

It's all satire, her comment "easy" was all tongue in cheek. In almost every one of her points, she brings out all the mixed message we parents are constantly hit with. She's trying to highlight how difficult it actually is to navigate parenthood when we are constantly told to do different things from different people. There's almost no thin line left for parent to tread on.

#3: From one perspective - A parent should know where her child is at night. From the other perspective - we're told to not ask the child so we don't show we dont trust him.

#6: Buy cool stuff for your children to help them fit in. On the other hand don't let her see that she needs cool clothing as a crutch.

#12: Teach children it's ok to make mistakes. On the other hand, don't teach them to apologize and acknowledge that they've made a mistake

#15: Praise a child too much will lead.... Don't praise a child enough, the child will...

etc..

leah233

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 4:37 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Here is another angle to look at this. Perhaps in today's society your aunt would have been less abusive to begin with.

I agree that it takes a lot less stress or dysfunctional parenting for someone to go off the rails today than it did in the 1970s. And that someone with abusive parents had a lot better chance of turning out normal in the 1970s than today.

OTOH a parent with abusive tendencies is far more likely to seek help or receive intervention today than in the 1970s. Today's society is much less willing to tolerate such wrongdoing on a personal or communal level. Therapists do get some credit for that.

This is a conundrum of todays therapy generation.There is the good the bad and the ugly.

The good is effective therapy and therapists who are a good influence on society, the bad is therapy that gets you nowhere, and the ugly is therapy and therapists who cause both personal and societal problems that otherwise would not have existed. All three should be acknowledged.

Zehava

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 5:03 pm

ectomorph wrote:

Know lots of people who claim their parents are "toxic" and it's almost in style to cut off your parents nowadays. I've never seen it from a rabbi it seems like a therapist thing.

There are extremely rare situations where a parent is severely abusive and hates the child. 99% of these stories are not these types of situations. It's very sad.

These kids will have kids. Let's hope their kids don't cut them off for perceived slights. As has been modeled for them.

You clearly know nothing
You hurt a lot of traumatized people with this post

groisamomma

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 5:20 pm

ectomorph wrote:

LOL "perceived slights" don't cause normal kids to cut contact. I wonder if you'd call being thrown down a flight of stairs or hit with a baseball bat "perceived slights." Or maybe raining fists on 9-year-old you at the bus stop in front of all your friends is also a "perceived slight?"

People like you eat up my mother's lies about how ungrateful I am and what a spoiled and selfish child she raised. In your eyes, how dare I cut off contact after all they did for me. If it wasn't so sad it would be comical.

I hate how you smugly hope my kids will do the same to me. You know what? My children consider themselves lucky to not know these grandparents. They are even luckier that they see such kibbud av from me and dh towards my in-laws for this very reason, because we want them to see how normal parents should be treated. Having seen years of abnormal behavior from one set of grandparents they are growing up to respect and revere their other grandparents, even if we are inconvenienced sometimes. Because that's what children are supposed to do; be mechabed their parents and keep kibbud av. And if I ever ch"v act that way towards my children or grandchildren kol hakavod to them for cutting all contact.

I'm not sure why I bothered with this post. People like you are too smug to change their minds anyway.

amother

Olive

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 5:30 pm

groisamomma wrote:

I'm really sorry for what you went through.

Please note though the she was referring to instances where the parents haven't been abusive, not a case like yours.

Although not as common, unfortunately there are definitely cases like that as well, where children cut off their parents for all sorts of perceived slights which either didn't happen or are grossly exaggerated. And these alienated parents also deserve a voice - there can be injustice on both sides of the aisle. My SIL is one such person. And no, my MIL isn't abusive by any stretch of imagination.

thunderstorm

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 5:42 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

There are many parents who believe that it’s a “perceived slight”, because they are narcissistic. To the entire world they look like the most loving parents . These parents make an effort to look like tzaddikim and tzidkaneos. Nobody but their suffering children have any idea what verbal and emotional abuse they may have inflicted on their child. They truly don’t see anything wrong with their method of parenting. That is part of their personality disorder. Therefore they will indeed perceive and believe that it was a “slight” and that their children are making an issue out of a tissue. Way too many children grew up this way. I promise you , it’s the desire of every child to want to remain connected to their parents. Even the abused children struggle with this until they are told that the only way they can get healthy is if they cut off (after first trying other things first, like set boundaries etc).
Any person here that has not been verbally, emotionally, psychologically, physically, or s-xually abused has NO IDEA what pain a child needs to go through and how difficult it is to actually cut off. I can’t wait until Moshiach comes so the world will see that so many of the people we assumed were so “innocent” were actually guilty of terrible atrocities to their children and those children who have been blamed for following a “new trend” will be seen for the innocent victims that they are. I can’t wait for that day.

banana123

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 5:42 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

If the parents haven't been abusive, and they haven't told the child that s/he is no longer welcome, then no normal child will cut contact.

If a child cuts contact with a parent, then you better believe that parent was abusive or initiated the move to cut contact with the child (as in a case where the child went OTD).

You might not see the parent as abusive, and that makes sense, because abuse is almost always behind closed doors, and sometimes only abuses some of the children but not all.

That doesn't mean the parent isn't abusive.

Your MIL isn't abusive towards you or your husband, or isn't abusive now. But your SIL may have had a very different experience and given the difficulty in cutting contact with a parent, I think it's fair to say that your SIL deserves the benefit of the doubt and as much support as you can give her.

"Alienated parent," just by the way, refers to a parent who was alienated from his or her child by the child's other parent.

amother

Lemon

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 5:44 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

Hear, hear.

I can't get over how if this was about a woman who claimed her husband as abusive, everyone would jump up and say she had a right to do what she did because abuse happens behind closed doors and no one knows what he's really like.

But when it's a child who was abused by a parent, no one can believe it happened. The parent is too perfect and caring. Banging head

amother

Olive

Sun, Jan 26 2020, 5:59 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

When ALL the other siblings are on the side of the parent, then I guess that's enough to assume that the perceived slights are just that. Remember that children can have personality disorders too.

I'm not ch'v trying to minimise anyone's pain, however, this letter and topic was regarding cases where parents have been alienated for no real reason. And it has to be acknowledged that it does sometimes happen too.

(In the case with my ILS, they haven't actually been alineated per se, she keeps reminding everyone what a tzadekes she is that she still has limited contact in order not to hurt them. The reality is that she keeps the limited contact so that she can use them when she needs, like have them look after her kids when she has a baby. But, then she'll create a fight over another perceived slight and cut off contact again when they're no longer needed.)