According to the Torah

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 3:46 pm

C'mon. Please. Please. Not another kollel-bashing thread. Enough.

Every. single. Jewish. boy. and. girl. with half a brain KNOWS that it is the husband's responsibility to support his family, and that this is written in the kesubah, and that a wife does not have to take the burden of parnassah.

Please, let everyone make their life choices in peace.

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 3:56 pm

Everyone knows what the Kesuba says... So we dress up women taking on mens' responsibilities in addition to juggling their own duties in spiritual arguments. But the problem is even if the reward is great, the cost is too. A woman can only handle so much, and if the mother is working when she would rather be at home, then she should not feel pressure to continue working. Sadly man women are pressured to work, childbear and childrear. That's a lot for one woman. Earning a parnossah is a huge responsibility, as is childbearing and rearing. That's why the Torah obligated men in the former and women in the latter, to break up the workload so one wouldn't have such a burden on their shoulders.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 4:55 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Yes & no. It's all been whitewashed and interpreted in a different light, that the straightforwardness of it is no longer a given. So in order for these children to make their life choices properly, we need to be honest and upfront with them and give them the whole perspective.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:04 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

They know! I promise!

Ask any bais yaakov girl or yeshiva boy who's responsibility parnassah is. They know the answer!

They also know that Torah learning the most important thing in this world and that they will receive eternal reward for it.

So they take those two peices of knowledge and each makes their life choices.

Nobody is forcing anything on anyone.

And IMHO, any stories of dysfunction you hear about kollel have absolutely nothing to do with kollel.
A man who can watch his wife collapsing from overwork and doesn't do anything about it is a rotten person, and would be regardless of his occupation.

So please. Let everyone live their lives in peace and recognize what the real issues in the world are.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes but the boys in yeshiva are not taught that
They are taught to find a girl that will support the family for as long as possible
And the girls are taught to go into high paying fields as well

Rabbi Yisrael Reisman, RY of Torah Vadaas, says that when he talks to his chasanim he tells them that if they are going to be in kollel, which means that their wives will (temporarily) be giving up this part of the kesuba, that they better double down on other parts of the kesuba, like respect.

Honestly, there are some problems with the system. Perhaps the biggest is that we've lost chanoch l'naar al pi darko. But kollel per se? No problem for as long as it works for the couple.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:14 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

NO, THEY DON'T!!! They only know half the picture!!

They know that it's the boy who's responsible for the parnassah & they know that Torah learning is the most important thing, but that's it!

They don't know the high probability of the hardships they'll encounter down the road. Whether is being a working mom with a house full of kids, living with financial struggles, or carrying a two person burden through the thick & thin. They have no idea what it truly entails. If we take the time to spell it out for them, only then would their decision truly be a thought-out one.

As of right now, they're making decisions with only one side of the equation. We entice them, spice it up and bury the hardships. And once they're set on their path, with no chance of return, we abandon them and leave them to their own devices.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:26 pm

What don't they know? That you need money to live? That it can be difficult to work and raise children at the same time? That kollel might not last forever?

What is it that you want to spell out to them? That raising a family costs money and you might not be able to do it on one salary?

C'mon, most adults of marriageable age know the realities of the world.

When the going gets difficult, either they will choose to endure the difficulty because they believe strongly enough in it, or they will let go of their dreams and the husband will find a job.

Why do you call it a path of no return?

amother

Crimson

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:40 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

They know of it, but not the true toll it takes. They don't know how hard child-rearing can be nor what a toll childbearing can take on their bodies. They know of financial hardships, but they do not know what it means to be literally struggling for the basics & not being able to provide for their children. They do not know how hard it is to go around begging for favors from tuition boards and others. They do not know how hard it is to hold down a job, plus hold down the fort at home.

Young adults are very idealistic & believe that everything is easily surmountable. They need the proper guidance to lay out the honest truths & only then can they truly decide which life path they can undertake.

By the path of no return, I mean to say that you can't go back and choose a different path. In most cases, you're left with paying your life backwards instead of forward. You can't go back and build a financial foundation so that you have some financial stability when the large expenses hit home. You can't suddenly become a SAHM when your DH hasn't yet incorporated any decent income capabilities or skills.

I'm not arguing for or against kollel. Both paths have validity. I'm just frustrated how we only prep our children for one path, while giving them only an incomplete picture of it. Why can't both paths be presented properly to our children.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 6:05 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

It is. It's also written in the kesuba which is something you should look over.
There's responsibilities both you and he committed to in there.
If he doesn't keep his commitments then its grounds for divorce.

Just want to point out that the kesuvah is given by the husband to the wife and details the obligations that he is assuming towards her. The wife makes no commitments in the kesuvah. It goes one way only - from husband to wife.

naturalmom5

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 6:37 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

Then the boy or girls parents are clearly not doing their job..

OP... if you chose to abdicate your role as a parent , because you were lazy or looking for social rewards , why are you suddenly complaining now...

If you told your children everything they need to know to be successful in life, regardless of what their schools and seminaries are feeding them. Then you did a superb job as a mother, take a bow..
What is the point of this thread..,

If you still have small children or no children....Once again what do hope to achieve with this thread

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 9:38 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

Ok I hear ya. Guess we can have different viewpoints. I really do think that most young people know what it entails, and most do not regret their choices.