If your husband works

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chmom

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 9:49 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just curious if your husband started working shortly after you got married if it was because you needed the money or because your husband was not cut out for learning.

So working is bedieved is it?
These kind of sentences make my blood boil
My husband is not in kolel because we don’t believe in that life model at all
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with his brains
I don’t go around asking kolel wives why their husbands aren’t doctors. Are they not cut out for it?

amother

Aubergine

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 9:52 am

My husband loves loves learning. He got double semicha when he was 24. He spends every evening and the entire shabbos learning.
But. He got off his tuchis and did the responsible thing by getting a full time (overtime, actually) job.

forgetit

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 9:53 am

chmom wrote:

I bet you most kollel wives would have good answers to that question. LOL

Back to the OP, seems like she does come from a background where that is a model and she wants perspective on that.
Your model is valid and the model where she is coming from is valid.
Why does your blood have to boil because you don't believe in that life model?

chmom

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 9:59 am

forgetit wrote:

I bet you most kollel wives would have good answers to that question. LOL

Not the model makes my blood boil, the assumption that if you are working there must be something wrong with you

forgetit

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:00 am

chmom wrote:

Not the model makes my blood boil, the assumption that if you are working there must be something wrong with you

Thanks for the clarity. That is indeed a very wrong assumption.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:05 am

my husband went out to work because the concept of not supporting yourself is so anethema to him. He pushed himself to learn at the beginning but it was hard finding reliable chavrusahs. He did so much better once he went back (he was working before we got married) and being kovea itim.

amother

Pewter

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:21 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

That's beautiful that he learns when he does, but my husband finds out it WAY HARDER to sit and learn all day then his current work job.

The way you said the above is condescending and is a lack of kavod hatorah. I needed to stand up for that.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:25 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I know some incredible elementary school Rebbeim who impact their students’ lives. Would you knock regular teachers, accountants, and businessmen as well? A person works to support their family, not everyone can work in a job that changes the world.

I am sorry if I was not clear. That was the point I was trying to make. An elementary school Rebbi, along with a math teacher, absolutely do impact their students lives and make the world a better place. An accountant absolutely contributes value as does a businessman. A person in sales, is facilitating others receiving that item to enhance the quality of their life and/or help bring them joy.
Most of all, I think supporting ones family is the priority, as it is the husband's responsibility as per the Ketubah, and I think it is a person's responsibility to try to support themselves, rather than have the intention of having others support them. (there are always circumstances which can't be avoided when people do need to depend on Tzedaka and that's OK, that why we have a Mitzvah of Tzedaka and so many organizations are in place.) It should be Bedieved, not Lechatchila.

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:26 am

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

You know not everyone believes the Kollel model is ideal. My husband is smart and a good learner but not Gadol Hador material. We believe that a person with that potential should be sitting and learning, but others have the responsibility to earn a Parnasa and work, with their strengths, to better/ advance the world. When I met my husband, he was not in Kollel, never was, and I am not looking for that in a SIL. My DH was working for the DA office, prosecuting child offenders (those who have harmed children, not juvenile delinquents). That impressed me. Had be been learning, my questions would have been -and to do what with it? Become a posek-great, become a Shul rav, a Rebbi for 3 grade boys- awesome, but end goal. What are you going to accomplish? Why did Hashem put YOU on this earth.
Not that I don't think learning Torah is important. It is very important it is like lehavdil, coffee for the soul. You can't, shouldn't get the day without it, but it is more for you and you need to do something for the world (unless as above, you are able to contribute in Torah).

Just want to say that we don’t always know who is gadol hador material. To produce one gadol it takes 1000 learners. (Elef nichnasim l’mikra Echad yotzai.. l’horaa.)
Also want to add that I know for a hard fact that Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner zatzal who was a gadol, wasn’t considered gadol material in his shidduchim years and still decided to learn.
When he got engaged to a beautiful capable smart girl people were surprised she agreed to take a boy who was ‘only’ sitting and learning and planned to continue learning (in those days only a potential future gadol got the public endorsement and understanding that he should really remain learning and growing).
And so people were very surprised that she agreed for “a regular boy” and even more surprised that her father also agreed and endorsed it.
To all the naysayers he replied the same 5 words “ich veis vuss ich ti” which means “I know what I’m doing”
After WWII they arrived in Israel with just the clothes on their back and he wanted to go work to support his family, But his wife vehemently disagreed. She said they don’t need more money and they have enough.
Meantime she earned money by becoming a cleaning lady, she literally washed other people’s floors because she wanted him to continue learning and growing, she was a strong woman and his learning meant everything to her.
And he wasn’t famous at that time at all!
Lo and behold he became a huge gadol hador.
Rav Wosner, Baal Shevet HaLevi.
It was not part of the ‘plan’ at all....
I’m not his descendant but am a relative.
As a child he was very normal, not considered a iluy or anything....
We never know who is gadol material.
And besides, learning fir the sake of learning is very great even without becoming a gadol.
The Torah stands on learning, not on Gedolim.
(Aside the 36)
There’s room in the Torah for everyone, and the world also stands on chessed and avoda but talmud Torah is kneged Kulam.

amother

Burlywood

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:39 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Some of us kollel couples support ourselves.
Just saying.

THIS. The discussion about kollel always seems to assume that parents/inlaws are supporting. I know many couples in kollel being supported and many not supported. And I know many couples not in kollel being supported (especially while the husband is in college) and many not supported.
If you want to get a job, that's great.
If you want to learn in kollel and it's financially possible with support or without (yes, I don't really care if your parents are giving you money... that doesn't affect me), that's great too.

fleetwood

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:52 am

chmom wrote:

Not the model makes my blood boil, the assumption that if you are working there must be something wrong with you

This! You hit the nail on the head!

amother

Jetblack

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:52 am

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

I’m sorry, I completely misunderstood. I agree that this applies to most, but we do have the concept of the Yissachar-Zevulan relationship.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 10:58 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

In this case, if the mother of a bunch of kids works full time to support her learning husband, the KIDS END UP PAYING THE PRICE FOR THIS! It is impossible that not. Some things just end up falling to the side. It is not possible for a mother that works full time to be there for her kids all the way.

stillnewlywed

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 11:20 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

My husband learned for a few years because it was expected, but he didn't really enjoy it so he went out to work. He learns daf yomi now and has a much fuller schedule than he used to. He's thriving this way, BH.
We also needed the money to live, but could have probably pushed through another year or two if he would have been enthusiastic about learning all day.

I was about to write this almost word for word

stillnewlywed

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 11:23 am

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

I think the kids are in a better position if the father learns and the mother works full time, than if both parents work full time, which is very common.

tigerwife

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 11:24 am

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

And if she works full time, together with her husband who works full time, to cover the bills,, then it’s fine?

Zehava

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 11:32 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just curious if your husband started working shortly after you got married if it was because you needed the money or because your husband was not cut out for learning.

Um what?
Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do when you get married? Support your family? Where else would we get money from?

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 12:13 pm

tigerwife wrote:

And if she works full time, together with her husband who works full time, to cover the bills,, then it’s fine?

There is actually a huge difference.

It goes against our biology and how humans evolved for the woman to be the breadwinner and the man to be supported. There are consequences to this kind of arrangement (resentment, lack of respect for husband)
It is also emasculating for the man. The woman takes on both male and female roles. She carries the financial and household burdens.

But when both are working, the man is still a provider. Yes his wife is too, but he is still fulfilling his instinctual role. He also carries the financial burden.

amother

Burlywood

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 12:29 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

This made me laugh. I know of plenty of families in kollel where the wife works part time and plenty of families not in kollel where the wife works full time. One does not equal the other.

("Kollel" doesn't create neglect, the same way "Lots of children" doesn't create neglect. But I'm going to go there- you can go back to all the threads about having large families for that LOL

)

amother

Burlywood

Fri, Feb 07 2020, 12:33 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Periwinkle wasn't talking about the shalom bayis and issues with the marriage when the man feels emasculated... she was talking about the children being neglected when the mother works full time. tigerwife is just asking why it's different for the children when both parents work full time.

Regardless, I agree that this can be a struggle for families where the wife is the primary breadwinner. Like everything else in marriage, it can be worked on and worked out- especially in a case where the husband and wife truly value Torah to an extent that Torah creates the respect and the feeling that he leads the home- but I'm sure there are homes where this an issue.

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