What actually is the difference between PANDAS and ASD?

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 9:09 am

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Just like how spina bifida, osteoarthritis, scoliosis, spondylitis, etc. are in the spine?

No, not like that, because these conditions have completely different, well understood etiologies, and distinct biomarkers. Versus add/odd/adhd/asd don't have any distinct biomarkers, nor are they linked to specific hard genes, plus they are often comorbid and symptoms completely overlap. They are clinical diagnoses and merely a label for a grouping of symptoms.

amother

Amethyst

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:01 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

This is what mainstream med would like to have you believing. The fact is that lots and lots of parents, along with their informed drs ARE in fact healing their children from autism using all kinds of treatments including diet, supplements, herbs, etc. Medication and therapies are sometimes also part of the healing process, but they don't address the root cause.

Nonsense. I've been teaching for 15 years and I've probably had at least 1 student on the spectrum every year, sometimes more. Just about all of them had at least 1 parent or sibling with similar characteristics. You can't fight genetics with diet.

amother

Lavender

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:06 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

First of all, some of these conditions do have biomarkers.

Secondly, we can successfully treat ADD, ADHD, OCD, etc.

Yes ocassionsly they can be cormordbid but they are more than so not. If you're referring to autistic individuals also suffering from them then that may be the case, but the conditions are not related.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:09 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

You absolutely can fight genetics with diet. Not hard, mendellian genetics, but asd definitely isn't that. Have you never heard of epigenetics? Look at PKU as a prime example.

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:12 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Research indicates that people who have specific genes associated with autoimmunity (specific HLA subtypes) are more likely to develop a leaky blood brain barrier as a result of exposure to some adjuvants-which are immune stimulants. Which would make a lot of sense with what you're saying. You can look up the work of the immunologist Schonfeld to learn more about this.

amother

Amethyst

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:14 pm

No. You can't.
I feel bad for people who are going to expend an enormous amount of energy time emotion and money on this stuff when they would be better served by consulting with therapists and reputable doctors.
But I understand why people want to believe what you write. It's very tempting to believe things can be cured if you just to x.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:16 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

I would love to know about biomarkers for ocd, adhd and asd. I would also love to know of drs who use those biomarkers when making a diagnosis.

I don't consider psychotropic medication to be successful treatment. Not with the risks that come along, and not the the guessing game that it is to find the right concoction, and not with the fact that ppl are dependent on them for life.

about the overlap between ocd adhd and asd, the literature is full of it.

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:21 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I'm getting the sense that you have very strong feelings about this topic. Care to share?

amother

Lavender

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:28 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Do you consider insulin, MAO inhibitors, blood thinners etc to be successful treatments? Every medication has risks and it is often a guessing game, even outside of psychiatry.

It is absurd to suggest that conditions like OCD, ADD and ADHD are related, when we know they are not. Some diseases overlap so while a child with ASD may also have OCD, the two diseases are in no way the same. Why is that hard for you to swallow?

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 12:32 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Why is it hard for you to swallow that they may have the same root cause? Blood brain barrier permeability and neuroinflammation.

amother

Bisque

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 2:24 pm

nchr wrote:

OCD, ADD, ADHD and ASD do not have the same cause. You know that....

Very often (as in my kids case) it does.
DC always had some asd traits. Especailly erratic sensory needs - sometimes sensory seeking somtimes avoident all in the same 60 seconds.... tics (or what you might call autistic repetative behaviours), OCD, ADD & ODD, Depression.

DC is finally being treated for pandas, its crazy how different my child is.
All of the above are going. The tics are still here but getting less with time. There are better days and worse days (like the days that DC cheats on the diet, or a friend sitting behind DC in school is sick.... or the baby is sick..... the flares.)
But I had a different DC. A pleasent, gentle, kind, calm & happy child. A child who can finish the homework without repeatedly reading and rereading the homework instructions. A child that talks in a normal voice instead of the high pitched voice that drove everyone insane. A child that actually falls asleep at a decent hour in their own bed, and stays asleep till the morning!
A child that does not display any asd behaviours.
That same child 6 mo ago would qualify for Special Education.

amother

Bisque

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 2:37 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

Thank G-d . Would you be willing to specify practioners or treatment protocol ? Most ppl in traditional western medicine won’t believe any of this until someone G-d forbid gets sick in their own family .

Diet change, vitamins and homeopathic remedies. Life isnt perfect. But hopefully there is an end in sight.

My relative was cured that same way 10+ years ago from a severe form of Sydenham’s chorea. It was progressively getting worse even with treatment, it got so bad that my relative couldn't walk and couldnt manage to speak coherently or express his/her thoughts. At that point all the neurologists had to offer were lifelong strong sedatives, which turned the child into a complete zombie.... unless you live thru these things you cannot understand.

nchr

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 2:51 pm

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

Ok, so what is the cause?

Just because we know that something is a separate disease does not mean we know the exact cause. For example, we do not know what causes Crohn's or Peanut Allergies, but they are not the same. We know enough to know that they are separate illnesses. We know that genetics play a large roll in many diseases, including these. We probably know the least about ASD, but I imagine we will eventually know more.

For example, if you are suggesting that ADD/ADHD and OCD are the same illness, then why is it that both are treated differently? Stimulants work well for ADD/ADHD while SSRIs work well for OCD. Obviously there are exceptions, but what would the benefit be of lumping them together? If anything, it would prevent appropriate treatment and stifle research. If, however, a child has ASD and you believe his OCD or ADD is related to that, I could see why putting these illnesses together could be beneficial because the real issue would be the ASD, but for a child or adult with ADD and no OCD or no ASD, it would be counterproductive to lump it with other, non related disorders. The more specific, the better treatments available.

nchr

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 2:52 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

This is caused by a bacterial infection....

amother

Wheat

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 3:07 pm

I believe most asd kids have adhd symptoms.. some believe these syndromes are on a spectrum .... asd is more severe form and starts younger with social problems from earlier age . There is a huge overlap with many asd kids showing ocd symptoms... and truthfully stimulant treatment for asd kids is not that effective and usually not used alone without other meds . similarly SSri can help somewhat but not as well for asd patients . To complicate things , pandas causes increase in agitation , poor concentration , anxiety , moodiness, which blurs the diagnostic lines between these alphabet diagnoses . We can call these all brain damage (and also poor gut health ) .

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 5:30 pm

nchr wrote:

This is caused by a bacterial infection....

Pandas is actually considered sydenham's chorea minor by researchers. They're both based on the exact same prototype. Both are incomplete presentations of acute rheumatic fever because of no heart involvement.

I have personally heard one of the leading pandas researchers say that very often if pandas or pans onset happens very very early on in life it will look more like asd.

So many other common infections are known to cause post-infectious encephalitis. Herpes, coxsackie, mycoplasma.

Look up the symptoms for encephalopathies. They will be eerily similar to symptoms listed for odd, adhd, ocd, asd.

Why aren't more drs connecting the dots?

https://rarediseases.org/rare-.....orea/

if you read this post, especially the part about signs and symptoms, it's actually amazing how much of that looks like all these abc diagnoses we're discussing.

nchr

Thu, Feb 27 2020, 6:28 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

1. Sydenham's chorea can and often does has heart involvement.
2. PANDAS and Sydenham's chorea are not the go-to choice in the US because untreated strep is rare. They are more common in third world countries without proper healthcare
3. I read the symptoms. I don't know why you think it sounds eerily similar to symtoms listed for ODD, ADHD, OCD, etc. I know a child with OCD - she has a phobia of milk. she obssesses over milk, all the time. She doesn't obsess over anything else. The symptoms of Sydenham's chorea sound much more severe than standard OCD, ODD, or ADD, not to mention that they are combined with other severe symtoms. Most people with ADD do not also have OCD or other way around.