LWMO Wedding | Imamother

chmom

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:42 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Wow, thank you all!

To clarify: I am the one telling my mom that if it’s not a halachic issue she should pick her battles veeeerrry carefully. The problem is that my mom is worried she will be mortified because 90% of our family is at least as yeshivish as is if not more, not to mention the chassidish contingent. So I’m trying to calm her down.
On the other side, my sister is a really good, sensitive person. She doesn’t want to upset my parents... but it’s her wedding.

Regarding the animal - it’s a super unusual pet. And they want it to walk down the aisle. I straight-up told her she’s making a mockery of the event (she did specifically ask for my opinion on it).

My parents are planning to talk to the mesader kedushin. But they don’t know what to expect from him because they don’t know him and have no clue where he is on the spectrum of MO Rabbis.

I have been telling my mother that it’s going to come down to “is it worth it?”. That she wants to preserve the relationship. But I am telling my sister the same thing. I really don’t mind being in the middle here (I may come to rue the day I said this), because each side respects me and my opinion as understanding of both sides.

It sounds to me like a lot of this is about your mother’s embarrassment.
Well, it IS your sister‘s wedding and as long as things are not clearly against Halacha I think I would have to say that your mother needs to just suck it up
If her friends and family think less of her because her daughter isn’t having a cookie cutter yeshivish wedding then those people are not real friends and anyway do not need to be placated by conforming to what they believe is the only right way of doing things.
I Find it very difficult to wrap my head around this whole worry of what will the neighbours say.
I hope your mom can just go, have a blast at the wedding of her beloved daughter and never mind the people in the bleachers.

amother

Wine

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:54 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My sister is hopefully getting engaged shortly, and the wedding plan negotiations have begun in earnest. I am hoping to help my mother through this, as a lot of it will be very emotionally difficult for her.
My family is basically chofetz Chaim type yeshivish, on the less yeshivish end of that particular group. My sister is now firmly MO, and somewhere in the middle of that spectrum in certain ways, but not in others. She does only wear skirts but they are pretty short, short-sleeves, low cut neckline, etc. She is very into learning and Halacha as SHE understands it, and is uber-feminist.
She is also extremely money-savvy and hates to see money being thrown at social convention. So anything she seems as not halachically required and is just “what’s done” seems to her to be a big waste of money, if it’s something she does not particularly desire at her wedding. She is 23, financially independent, and would have just paid for it herself to have it her own way and save many thousand of (my parents’) dollars, but her boyfriend is opposed to doing that because obviously they would have other use for that money.

So it comes as a surprise to no one that there are two vastly different visions for this wedding.

I told my mother they should have a conversation where my sister describes her dream wedding and my mother can then go through the list and see what she can tolerate, ask shaila about what my parents feel is assur, and decide what parts would really make them feel humiliated. That way they can hash it out once instead of a series of fights. But I don’t know if my mom has the courage to do that yet - or at all.

I am hoping to run interference on both sides and keep the tensions down. I have been doing so already to some success, but I need more information. I am looking for some differences that anyone has experienced or can imagine at a LWMO wedding as opposed to a standard yeshivish one. I know that some things will be differences in social norms as opposed to a halachic difference and that is where I’m hoping to get the most compromise from my parents. Also some things are her own mishigas (not specifying to protect her identity, but it is outlandish to the point where it’s not a culture thing, it’s a “she’s weird” thing), and some just cuz she things it’s a waste of money.

Thus far, she mentioned that she wants a woman reading the kesuba because a woman cannot halachically read the brachos but the kesuba is ok.
They are talking about having a family pet walk down the aisle.
Her gown will likely not be an issue because they will go to gemachs only (this is where the frugal thing helps) so there will be limited options for things my mother would find overly revealing.
She wants buffet style (my DH loooooves this idea) and really wants milchig
She wants no centerpieces.
She really wants outdoors but is aware that that may make logistics much more difficult.

Things I anticipate to be an issue: music, possible mixed dancing (later on?). Kissing under the chuppa. Couples dance. Women making speeches.

But I really can’t come up with more even though I know there will be things. I have been to MO weddings but not too many and I wasn’t looking at them from this angle.

Any suggestions as to what else might come up would be extremely helpful.

I think you’re being unrealistic if you think you can run interference and anticipate everything that can happen. It already sounds like it’ll be a spectacle no matter how much u try to interfere

DrMom

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:54 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thus far, she mentioned that she wants a woman reading the kesuba because a woman cannot halachically read the brachos but the kesuba is ok.
They are talking about having a family pet walk down the aisle.
Her gown will likely not be an issue because they will go to gemachs only (this is where the frugal thing helps) so there will be limited options for things my mother would find overly revealing.
She wants buffet style (my DH loooooves this idea) and really wants milchig
She wants no centerpieces.
She really wants outdoors but is aware that that may make logistics much more difficult.

The only thing on this list that seems to have any halachic ramifications is the bolded (and I have seen this at a number of Israeli DL weddings, BTW).

The other things - outdoor vs indoor wedding; buffet vs table service -- why does your mother care? They are just logistical preferences. (The pet thing is just weird, IMHO.)

BTW, these things are not specifically associated with LWMO couples.

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Things I anticipate to be an issue: music, possible mixed dancing (later on?). Kissing under the chuppa. Couples dance. Women making speeches.

Did your sister say she wants these things?

ETA: essie14 said it much better one page back

amother

Pumpkin

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 2:10 pm

chmom wrote:

I think you are lacking understanding about how many humans are built.
And/or I think you may not have read the OP about paying the bills.

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 4:58 pm

Ok, Ok, Ok... it's a chicken.
Hence my opinion that she would be making a mockery of the event.

We actually had a really productive conversation today. I was able to run some explanatory interference on both sides - letting my sister know that it's not that my mother doesn't care, it's just that she's afraid of being humiliated. I will continue calming my mother down and help her differentiate between ideals and what she can tolerate.

With this particular sibling, I am not worried about things blowing up in my face. My parents know I am hashkafically on their side, and my sister is really a super nice, sensitive, giving, mature person (who has given up on the chicken) so I don't think there will be any huge blowups. And DH is super even-keeled and reads people well, so if he thinks we are getting into dangerous territory he will tell me.

Ultimately, my mother will have to grit her teeth and bear it. The question will just be how much.

amother

Lemon

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 5:02 pm

If they've given up on the chicken, you are halfway home.
Ultimately your relatives will be presented (more in their face) what they already presumably know--that this sister is orthodox but much more modern than her family.

I will be facing this with my own daughter I believe. I don't think she will go as far as mixed dancing, which is really to the left, but I see her with no mechitza (maybe one or two trees) with separate circles.

I hadn't actually thought about the first dance of the bride and groom. That is still better than mixed dancing for all, and I think I will/would probably let that go. I'm assuming it is not a chuppas niddah, in which case, I wouldn't let it go, but technically, how would you or I know?

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 5:13 pm

Haven’t read the whole thread but will still put my 2 cents in

As far as a dairy meal
This is actually done in Brazil from, Chasidim to non observant. If the meal is to be served past 9 pm, then it is definitely dairy.
Before that time it can go either way.
It’s considered chic to have a dairy wedding, also fish is served.
Buffet is always done

In Brooklyn, By Syrian ppl,from Kolel Yeshivish to not shomer Shabbat, everyone has buffet, from the very rich to the middle class
It’s just what is done

Mixed seating
If you have a mechitza in one corner of the room you can have mixed seating and an area for women to dance.

You can set times for kosher music and not kosher music and dancing

amother

Blonde

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 5:38 pm

Random thoughts and ideas if they help : Do your guests not know that sis is on a completely different derech? Is this going to be a surprise? If they know they will know not to expect the norms.

If sis is mature, why not give her a check and thats it? And tell her don't give your parents a heart attack.

Just saying I have seen plenty mixed dancing and inappropriate dancing at " mitzvah tanzes " so whatever she comes up with as a dancing compromise should work. They can also play the more romantic type songs without a singer which is common anyways and those who don't do secular music will be none the wiser. Save the wildest music for the end. Plenty of fake Jewish music these days thats actually secular too.

And her and her chattan consider that the mitzvah tantze, be realistic with your parents that there is no way the dancing will stay separate the whole time if thats the crowd, though the first dance should be the traditional type. A pretty plant or divider with candles flowers type can do the job and be spontaneously moved later. Seating can expect to be mixed but can accommodate a few table only men or women to suit some peoples needs. Expect the very frum to leave room by mixed dancing.