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LWMO Wedding
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turca




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 5:45 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Ok, Ok, Ok... it's a chicken.
Hence my opinion that she would be making a mockery of the event.

We actually had a really productive conversation today. I was able to run some explanatory interference on both sides - letting my sister know that it's not that my mother doesn't care, it's just that she's afraid of being humiliated. I will continue calming my mother down and help her differentiate between ideals and what she can tolerate.

With this particular sibling, I am not worried about things blowing up in my face. My parents know I am hashkafically on their side, and my sister is really a super nice, sensitive, giving, mature person (who has given up on the chicken) so I don't think there will be any huge blowups. And DH is super even-keeled and reads people well, so if he thinks we are getting into dangerous territory he will tell me.

Ultimately, my mother will have to grit her teeth and bear it. The question will just be how much.

You last paragraph answers the whole thread, OP. The wedding is not about your mother. She has had her chance. Or yourself, you’ve had your chance as well.
I don’t know if it has to do with LWMO (whatever that’s ) wedding, but it sounds like your sister wants an eccentric wedding.
You’ll all behave at the wedding as you know how to. Whatever is weird, people ll talk about and the next day they ll talk about something else.
It’s a great opportunity for you and all of your crowd to accept different types of people.


Last edited by turca on Sun, Feb 09 2020, 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ellie7




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 7:51 pm
We were this couple in some ways (though, for the record, would not define ourselves as LWMO) and have also been to lots of different types of weddings. We actually did pay for our wedding ourselves and for various reasons got married far enough away from where we're originally from that our parents were able to minimize the embarrassment factor by their friends not coming.

A few notes, though:
    Our wedding venue was somewhat nontraditional and for logistical reasons, it would have been hard to put up a mechitza. We asked our mesader kiddushin (Centrist YU), and I was surprised when he said that so long as the men's and women's dancing were separate enough that they wouldn't inadvertently become mixed, the mechitza was actually unnecessary. Obviously not everyone holds that, but this was the halachic psak we got. (And we did not have mixed dancing.)

    We actually did have a buffet, which was fine, but I didn't like that people had to wait in line for food. At a different (non-frum, FWIW) wedding at a later date, I actually saw family-style serving (large platters on each table), which I thought was even better.

    We had women participate where they could, read a poem during an acceptable time (per the mesader kiddushin) under the chuppah, hold the chuppah poles.

    We signed the halachic prenup before the wedding but put a note in the programs that we had signed it because we thought it was important for people to know about it.

    We danced together and kissed.

    My DH met my parents most of the way down the aisle and walked me the rest of the way to the chuppah, which, BTW, is a legit minhag (we did it because we liked the symbolism of it, but it's a real minhag).

    Some of the other issues that popped up for us: We got flak for our wedding color, which was definitively not the acceptable black/gray/champagne. We wanted all our sisters to walk down the aisle and some refused on tzniut grounds. We, horror of horrors, didn't have the Hebrew translation on our invitations (we had our Hebrew names and quotes, etc.—just not the side-by-side translation).

    Other places you may run into trouble: Women singing (under the chuppah, at the meal, whatever). I've seen different types of chuppah seating—mixed or even three sections: men, women, and mixed (though, so far as I can tell, there's no halachic significance to any of this). Exchanging rings, as others have said, which can actually be a significant halachic problem.


I think the bottom line is that there are so many non-halachic issues here. Very few of the things that will be fights will be halachic in nature and even fewer will affect the halachic status of the marriage.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 8:10 pm
Oh God don’t get me started on the prenup. DH and my father and presumably most of the family are all in the “halachic prenup invalidates kiddushin” camp. Thus far I have managed to keep away from the topic with DH. But it’s going to come up and my sister is a major proponent. Ducking now in preparation!!!
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Sebastian




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 8:13 pm
OP would your sister be willing to have a smaller wedding in a dairy restaurant or something similar. That way your parents can keep the guest list mostly to family and your sis/bill s friends and be less worried about embarrassment
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 8:27 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Oh God don’t get me started on the prenup. DH and my father and presumably most of the family are all in the “halachic prenup invalidates kiddushin” camp. Thus far I have managed to keep away from the topic with DH. But it’s going to come up and my sister is a major proponent. Ducking now in preparation!!!


First of all, no one has any say in a prenup except the couple. Your husband has no say in this whatsoever.

Also, how exactly does it “invalidate” kiddushin??
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turca




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 8:34 pm
GreenEyes26 wrote:
First of all, no one has any say in a prenup except the couple. Your husband has no say in this whatsoever.

Also, how exactly does it “invalidate” kiddushin??

This, and even more: OP, why do u think u have a say in your sisters wedding????
Let me tell u something: years ago, my sister also had a “different” wedding than the rest of the family. Nobody said a word about. We went and we celebrated it.
Please do the same for your sister and mind your own business!
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 9:04 pm
turca wrote:
This, and even more: OP, why do u think u have a say in your sisters wedding????
Let me tell u something: years ago, my sister also had a “different” wedding than the rest of the family. Nobody said a word about. We went and we celebrated it.
Please do the same for your sister and mind your own business!


Did you even read the OP??

If anything, OP sounds like an amazing, understanding sis and DD.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 9:06 pm
My FIL was the one who was insistent that we have a halachic prenup. He said that he would never permit his daughters to get married without one and if by marriage I was going to be a daughter, then he would insist I have one too!
We are YU haskafa, and to my understanding, there is a movement that nobody should ever need it, but everyone should have it.
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turca




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 9:28 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
Did you even read the OP??

If anything, OP sounds like an amazing, understanding sis and DD.

If she is as understanding as she puts herself out, she will simply zip her mouth and celebrate the wedding.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 9:49 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Oh God don’t get me started on the prenup. DH and my father and presumably most of the family are all in the “halachic prenup invalidates kiddushin” camp. Thus far I have managed to keep away from the topic with DH. But it’s going to come up and my sister is a major proponent. Ducking now in preparation!!!


I have heard of the objections to the halachic prenup, but I've never heard any that say that it invalidates the kiddushin. Are you sure that that is what your father and husband think? (And if so, can you clarify the reasoning?) It is much more likely that they believe that the halachic prenup would invalidate a get given based on the prenup, but bez"H it will never be relevant for your sister. (And hypothetically, if a woman has a halachic prenup but develops concerns about a get given under the duress of the prenup, she can later choose to waive the rights given to her by the prenup ... which is a long way of saying that there is no way that arranging a prenup before a chasunah will automatically invalidate anything.)
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Feb 09 2020, 10:46 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Oh God don’t get me started on the prenup. DH and my father and presumably most of the family are all in the “halachic prenup invalidates kiddushin” camp. Thus far I have managed to keep away from the topic with DH. But it’s going to come up and my sister is a major proponent. Ducking now in preparation!!!


There is a new and improved right wing version (Yes yes I know) of the prenup that the YU crowd has been doing for a number of years. It closes a lot of the loopholes that the more right wing poskim objected to. Google it. There are some more charedi askanim behind it and most of the charedi poskim are happy with it.
If your sister wants a halachic prenup then possibly you can convince her to go with this newer one.
In any case I think you are misunderstanding the objections to the original RCA prenup, it does not invalidate the kiddushin at all (although it should not be signed at the wedding) rather some say it could invalidate a get down the line.
In general, I think that a)you sound like a really nice sister and b)you and your family have a really mixed up view of what is merely familiar New York right wing culture and what is Halacha.

ETA- I googled it.
YasharCoalition.org
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amother
Olive


 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 6:45 am
BetsyTacy wrote:
I have never seen an animal at a Jewish wedding.

Try to convince her that the animal is too out there for this crowd (any crowd??)
A milchig buffet, people can see as quirky.

The animal will have this wedding named the zoo wedding in perpetuity.


I guess you haven't been to Boro Park where peanuts the toy poodle and my puppy Charlie are frequently guests at weddings
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:00 am
I have been at a DL wedding where couples recited the brachot under the chuppah together.
OP, none of what you've listed is a halachic problem.
As other posters have said, many mesadrei kedushin refuse to officiate without a halachic prenup.
Speaking as the mother of a chattan where the kallah's family railroaded us into a substandard wedding, I know what it is to be embarassed when my friends came to the hall.
However, I know that what is truly important is that my son found a wonderful woman to share his life with.
Nothing else really matters.
Your mother needs to grow up.
And OP, it is NOT your job to be mediating btwn. your sister and your mother. This will blow up in your face. Get out. It's none of your business.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:05 am
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
There is a new and improved right wing version (Yes yes I know) of the prenup that the YU crowd has been doing for a number of years. It closes a lot of the loopholes that the more right wing poskim objected to. Google it. There are some more charedi askanim behind it and most of the charedi poskim are happy with it.
If your sister wants a halachic prenup then possibly you can convince her to go with this newer one.
In any case I think you are misunderstanding the objections to the original RCA prenup, it does not invalidate the kiddushin at all (although it should not be signed at the wedding) rather some say it could invalidate a get down the line.


Thank you!! Possibly the most helpful post on this thread!!
For all those who think that I think I am in control (or have any say) in my sister's wedding: Please, please, please read the OP. Not just for my post, but in general. There is a common trend on Imamother where some posters can't be bothered to actually read the OP or her subsequent posts, and then attack her based on incorrect assumptions (or just a lack or reading comprehension skills?). I'm not in an emotionally vulnerable place with this issue, so I'm ok, but it is still hurtful, and it hurts a hundred times worse when the OP is an emotionally charged and personal situation. Please, if you can't read the OP carefully, spare other people your criticism.

It is not my wedding. I am not making decisions. I do have a small say in things because my sister and mother are the ones making decisions and they are asking my advice. Yes, my mother DOES have a say. My sister and I have spoken further, because she has repeatedly considered just doing this on her own, but I feel (and she agrees) that that would be much more damaging to the relationship in this particular case.

My mother is not the controlling monster many posters seem to think she is. She is a normal person, who is already going waaaaayyy out of her comfort zone on a large number of things. This is mostly a fear thing, and I am coaxing her along. Fear of public humiliation, yes, but also fear because she is a veteran, she knows what she is doing, and now she is starting over, almost like it's her first time making a wedding.

As far as the prenup goes: my father and DH do not have a say. That's not what I wrote. They both are extremely learned and from their halachic understanding, the prenup is extremely flawed. I think the argument is something like, "The prenup states that if the husband refuses to give a get, the kiddushin was never valid. But you cannot have that condition because it establishes a conditional kiddushin, which is not a kiddushin". Honestly, it has (thankfully) been a long time since this topic last came up, so I could be dead wrong on the exact details of the objection. But they are hardly alone, this has been a controversy for many years now, where the more right-wing poskim have felt that there are fatal flaws in the halachic prenup. The bottom line is that my family members feel very strongly that it is hugely problematic. So there will be conflict on the issue. She will do what she wants, but if my father genuinely feels that it sets up an invalid kiddushin, can you really blame him for trying to do something about it???

That being said, I am looking into the version Saddlebrown mentioned, and I am hoping that it is something they can feel comfortable with, and prevent a lot of conflict.

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

In general, I think that a)you sound like a really nice sister and b)you and your family have a really mixed up view of what is merely familiar New York right wing culture and what is Halacha.


Not remotely. My father knows full well what is halacha and what is not. Wherever there is a halachic issue, they will ask a shaila and go from there. Most of it is 100% cultural. No question. My mother would agree. Doesn't make it easy for her to face her mother and her siblings, feeling extremely embarrassed. My father is a prominent public figure in their community. They will be very much on display. It is very very hard to go against the flow, particularly in a more conformist community.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:10 am
I fail to understand the issue here: he who pays, says.

OP, if your parents are paying for the wedding, then it is very gracious of them to offer your sister an opinion, but they don't have to follow her wishes. She can either cough up and host the event herself, or toe her family's lines for the duration of the wedding.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:17 am
Quote:
As far as the prenup goes: my father and DH do not have a say. That's not what I wrote. They both are extremely learned and from their halachic understanding, the prenup is extremely flawed. I think the argument is something like, "The prenup states that if the husband refuses to give a get, the kiddushin was never valid. But you cannot have that condition because it establishes a conditional kiddushin, which is not a kiddushin". Honestly, it has (thankfully) been a long time since this topic last came up, so I could be dead wrong on the exact details of the objection. But they are hardly alone, this has been a controversy for many years now, where the more right-wing poskim have felt that there are fatal flaws in the halachic prenup. The bottom line is that my family members feel very strongly that it is hugely problematic. So there will be conflict on the issue. She will do what she wants, but if my father genuinely feels that it sets up an invalid kiddushin, can you really blame him for trying to do something about it???


There was an article a few weeks ago in the Mishpacha magazine, which is pretty right wing, about the new versions of the halachic prenup and why they are so important. They had quotes from respected rabbanim and a lot of information about it. Maybe call or email them for a copy of it so you can discuss it with your husband and father.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:21 am
Rappel wrote:
I fail to understand the issue here: he who pays, says.

OP, if your parents are paying for the wedding, then it is very gracious of them to offer your sister an opinion, but they don't have to follow her wishes. She can either cough up and host the event herself, or toe her family's lines for the duration of the wedding.

I suppose... But it's a little control-freaky to offer to pay for someone's wedding and then insist on many details which are completely arbitrary (whether food is buffet or served at the table, whether the wedding is outdoors or indoors).

I doubt most mothers would do that to their daughters.

Also, if the daughter pays for her own wedding, she may decide to completely disregard her parents' desires (a whole brood of chickens marching down the aisle!), whereas now they can reach some sort of compromise.

Even if the daughter pays for 100% of the wedding, OP and her close friends and family will be invited, so if the mother will be embarrassed by her daughter's dream wedding, having the daughter pay for it will not solve the problem.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:26 am
DrMom wrote:
I suppose... But it's a little control-freaky to offer to pay for someone's wedding and then insist on many details which are completely arbitrary (whether food is buffet or served at the table, whether the wedding is outdoors or indoors).

I doubt most mothers would do that to their daughters.


Also, if the daughter pays for her own wedding, she may decide to completely disregard her parents' desires (a whole brood of chickens marching down the aisle!), whereas now they can reach some sort of compromise.

Even if the daughter pays for 100% of the wedding, OP and her close friends and family will be invited, so if the mother will be embarrassed by her daughter's dream wedding, having the daughter pay for it will not solve the problem.


As a courtesy. But this is less about the imma.

This is about the bride. She wants a wedding which is very unusual for her family, and which they would even find insulting or disgusting in some ways. She can't do that on their dime.

She has the option of paying for her own - and if she wants all these things which are important to her, then she should. But if she wants Imma and Abba to foot the bill for her celebration, then she needs to respect their wishes. Anything else is honestly rude, and will strain her relationship with her parents.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:38 am
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
There is a new and improved right wing version (Yes yes I know) of the prenup that the YU crowd has been doing for a number of years. It closes a lot of the loopholes that the more right wing poskim objected to. Google it. There are some more charedi askanim behind it and most of the charedi poskim are happy with it.
If your sister wants a halachic prenup then possibly you can convince her to go with this newer one.
In any case I think you are misunderstanding the objections to the original RCA prenup, it does not invalidate the kiddushin at all (although it should not be signed at the wedding) rather some say it could invalidate a get down the line.
In general, I think that a)you sound like a really nice sister and b)you and your family have a really mixed up view of what is merely familiar New York right wing culture and what is Halacha.

ETA- I googled it.
YasharCoalition.org


I actually find this insulting. As if to say that there’s no way YU rabbanim are learned enough to come up with a halachically valid pre-nip only chareidi rabbanim can handle that. Can't Believe It

I would bet that the whole thing is politics.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Feb 10 2020, 9:56 am
DrMom wrote:
I suppose... But it's a little control-freaky to offer to pay for someone's wedding and then insist on many details which are completely arbitrary (whether food is buffet or served at the table, whether the wedding is outdoors or indoors).

I doubt most mothers would do that to their daughters.

Also, if the daughter pays for her own wedding, she may decide to completely disregard her parents' desires (a whole brood of chickens marching down the aisle!), whereas now they can reach some sort of compromise.

Even if the daughter pays for 100% of the wedding, OP and her close friends and family will be invited, so if the mother will be embarrassed by her daughter's dream wedding, having the daughter pay for it will not solve the problem.


All of this is being somewhat blown out of proportion. My mother is not being controlling, and my sister is not Bridezilla. But yes, your last point is absolutely correct, and there would be some seriosly hurt feelings on all sides at that point.

dancingqueen wrote:
I actually find this insulting. As if to say that there’s no way YU rabbanim are learned enough to come up with a halachically valid pre-nip only chareidi rabbanim can handle that. Can't Believe It

I would bet that the whole thing is politics.


No, there is a difference in understanding of the halacha, and the updated version supposedly remedies some of the concerns that chareidi poskim had with the original. Nobody is saying YU rabbanim aren't learned enough. They simply hold a certain position that chareidi poskim disagree with.
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